IW 199: InterpreTips: Devil's Advocate - What You Believe

Shame on you! I'm gonna tell!

Sometimes we don't discuss opinions because they may be controversial. But this can lead us to lose the ability to think about the reasons behind these opinions or beliefs. Let's discuss some unpleasant ideas that we confront often. But let's also think about the reasons why we have these beliefs about these opinions or ideas.

What do you believe? Can you support your thoughts with reasons?

Transcript

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IW 199: InterpreTips: Devil's Advocate - What You Believe

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS]

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:34 Tim [ONLY TIM SPEAKS IN THIS EPISODE]

And now, the quotes of the day.

00:00:36

The first by author, Robert Heinlein.

00:00:40

“When one teaches, two learn.”

00:00:44

And the second by Aristotle.

00:00:47

“Those who know, do. Those that understand, teach.”

00:00:54

Today we're going to look into, well, some possibly upsetting perspectives.

00:01:01

So, buckle up.

00:01:03

I'm going to be getting controversial.

00:01:06

In fact, I might say some things that will be unheard of in our profession.

00:01:12

Things that we need to talk about.

00:01:15

Things that maybe we don't like to talk about.

00:01:18

Should I even talk about them?

00:01:20

Let's get started and see what you think and what you believe.

00:01:26

Are you ready?

00:01:27

Listen and think.

00:01:29

Let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:01:35

A few years after I got my degree in astrophysics, I started working at a science museum in Oklahoma, and there I expanded my teaching repertoire for many age levels, from early elementary school kids all the way up to adults and teachers.

00:01:56

And at each of those levels, I had to learn how to explain complex ideas of physics, of astronomy, of rocket science, chemistry, and about some of the natural sciences that we talked about in the museum every day.

00:02:15

But as you can imagine, one day I would be teaching a group of students, say, in the third or fourth grade, the next day, I would be teaching the teachers of those same students.

00:02:27

On one level, I'm teaching and showing the basics of this theory or this idea and answering simple questions about why.

00:02:37

Why do snakes smell with their tongue?

00:02:40

How do they smell with their tongue?

00:02:42

How does this snake see the heat signatures of its prey?

00:02:47

Why do some stars become black holes and others don't?

00:02:50

What is gravity?

00:02:53

Uff. So many things that you have to think about and try to explain on a third grade level and for the teachers, how do you teach this concept?

00:03:04

In order to teach at a variety of levels like that, you really have to understand the concepts you're talking about.

00:03:12

Because if you don't fully understand it, if you simplify the language, or you try to get to a simplistic way of saying it, you may be deleting details or information that's necessary for the understanding, or you're actually misrepresenting what is true.

00:03:34

And on the higher level, how can you explain to a teacher how to teach something when you're not fully able to do it yourself?

00:03:46

And so, as I was learning to teach this, I was studying myself.

00:03:51

Wait a minute now.

00:03:52

They don't understand this, this, this, or this.

00:03:55

So, I have to come up with an answer that answers that before they ask or when they ask.

00:04:03

But as you're teaching it, the students are asking questions that you did not think of.

00:04:08

They're coming up with ideas that, well, could we do this?

00:04:12

What if we put 50 kilograms on this side?

00:04:15

Won't it move it?

00:04:16

Well, not unless you move the fulcrum.

00:04:20

Simple ideas, just experiments, experiments.

00:04:24

And if you didn't understand what I just gave you, think of a seesaw or a teeter-totter on the playground.

00:04:30

That point that the board is balancing on is the fulcrum.

00:04:34

And every kid knows that if a big kid gets on one end and a little kid gets on the other end, the little kid's not going to move the big kid.

00:04:44

But if you use your imagination and some simple tools, you move that fulcrum, that pivot point, closer to the big kid, now you don't need as big a kid on the other end to move it.

00:04:58

So, you start with what the students know, whether the students are 5 or 75.

00:05:05

But you need to understand why.

00:05:08

But I won't go into explaining that.

00:05:11

What I need to explain is what I just did, explain.

00:05:16

You need to know what you're talking about before you can teach.

00:05:20

Understanding it deeply enough to explain it in the most simple way as you can.

00:05:28

And that's why we're talking about what we know as sign language interpreters.

00:05:34

Do we understand our profession enough to be able to explain all of those details?

00:05:40

That's what we're talking about today.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:05:47

Almost every week I'm asked what it is I do.

00:05:52

How did I get into interpreting?

00:05:54

Why did I get into interpreting?

00:05:56

How do I do it?

00:05:58

Did I go to school for it?

00:06:00

Why isn't sign language universal?

00:06:03

What do you mean?

00:06:04

Deaf people should be teaching sign language, not hearing people.

00:06:10

All of these questions, all of these curiosities into what I do and what I live makes me explain it, makes me defend my opinions, my perspectives, my ideas.

00:06:25

It also makes me reiterate again and again, say the things that I have learned from mentors, from my universities, and from interpreters that I know and love.

00:06:38

And it is easy to answer these questions every single time.

00:06:42

In fact, it's become a script that I almost read like on a teleprompter, like every politician does now, and pause at the right moments to give clarity, to make them think, and figure out the answers for themselves until I see that puzzled look, and then I explain what I actually mean or what they should actually think, or how they should behave, or how they should interact with the other clients, with interpreters.

00:07:14

All of those things have come naturally now because I've said it soooo many times.

00:07:20

But sometimes we need to stop and think, is this what I truly believe?

00:07:25

Let's break it down piece by piece.

00:07:29

Instead of giving the usual plastic answers, let's take off the plastic wrap.

00:07:36

Let's look inside the package.

00:07:39

What does it really mean and can we really prove what we believe is true?

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:07:46

When I'm having one of those days, I need a stiff, strong drink of coffee.

00:07:51

In fact, you can support me in that cause.

00:07:54

Just click on the links in the show notes for Buy Me a Coffee to support interpreters worldwide.

00:07:59

Thank you.

00:08:00

Now let's go back. 

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:08:02

Are you ready?

00:08:03

Let's get controversial.

00:08:04

The first question, should I even say it?

00:08:07

Why not?

00:08:08

Because we need to think about it.

00:08:10

We need to think, what is it we should answer?

00:08:13

What do we believe about this?

00:08:16

Do we know more about sign language than most Deaf people?

00:08:23

Yeah, I gave you a minute to think about that.

00:08:26

As a sign language interpreter, we learn the languages in depth.

00:08:30

We have education to learn the linguistics of sign language, the structure or the grammar, multiple vocabulary possibilities for different concepts.

00:08:44

We learn about the different registers, all of those things about the language, just like most of us learn about our native spoken language.

00:08:54

We have education about it.

00:08:57

However, do the Deaf get the same education about their own language that we do?

00:09:02

Do they go to school and in the first grade or second grade of their school, they start having classes about their signed language, about their native language?

00:09:13

Do they?

00:09:14

I propose 99% of them do not.

00:09:18

And if that is true, the majority of Deaf do not have their language taught to them.

00:09:24

They do not have classes.

00:09:26

They do not study the linguistics, the grammar, the appropriate use of their language.

00:09:32

If they don't have that education, and yet sign language interpreters do, does that mean we know the language more?

00:09:41

I don't have all the answers, but I'm asking you to think about that.

00:09:45

What do you believe about that?

00:09:48

Perhaps we know more about the grammar, the linguistics, to a certain extent.

00:09:54

Perhaps we even know a little bit more about how to use the language because we have a job, have a work, a profession, where we are focused on the meaning of the language and how to use it to get across the meaning from another language.

00:10:11

And therefore, we have to look at the intricacies of how the language is used compared to how the other language is used so that we can transfer the meaning in a, well, meaningful way.

00:10:25

And it's good that sign language interpreters learn the linguistics or learn the grammar, learn the syntax, the use of the language, as well as vocabulary.

00:10:36

All of that creates an environment for the interpreter to excel in the interpretation work.

00:10:45

It's part of our practice.

00:10:47

However, it doesn't mean that we are as good in the language as a native user is. Hmm.

00:10:55

So, does that mean that a hearing interpreter…?

00:10:58

(Here's the next controversial question.)

00:11:02

…a hearing interpreter can teach a signed language?

00:11:07

Notice how I got quiet there at the end because I knew the reaction I might be getting from you listening to this.

00:11:14

Can we teach sign language?

00:11:17

Well, the answer is yes, we can, but should we?

00:11:21

I mean, we know the language.

00:11:23

We know the pieces, the parts, the grammar, the use of it.

00:11:26

We understand how to formulate, express it.

00:11:31

But should we be teaching sign language?

00:11:34

We're non-native users.

00:11:37

What about CODAs who grew up in a Deaf family, Deaf extended family?

00:11:42

Can they teach sign language?

00:11:44

Should they?

00:11:46

Well, let's look at other languages.

00:11:48

There are teachers here in the Czech Republic who are Czech, who have learned English, the grammar, the syntax, the structure, the everything associated with the language.

00:12:00

And they teach English here.

00:12:02

I, as an English native speaker, I don't think that's a problem.

00:12:06

I see where they make mistakes, like the pronunciation, mixing American and British pronunciation together, or British grammar and American grammar in the same sentence, phrases from each culture.

00:12:21

So, I see those little mistakes or combinations that are not pure English one way or another, but no one is in an uproar about them teaching English.

00:12:34

They do have native speakers of English with them usually, or other teachers in another classroom who also teach conversation and use of the language.

00:12:46

So, they work in tandem, but not always.

00:12:50

So, what is the reasoning behind that?

00:12:52

I have many reasons, myself, but I want to hear from you.

00:12:57

What are your reasonings?

00:12:58

How do you answer these?

00:13:00

How do you explain this to someone who doesn't understand it?

00:13:05

Someone not in our profession or someone in our profession who you disagree with?

00:13:10

How do you explain your side, your opinion?

00:13:13

What evidence do you bring?

00:13:16

Is it because they're a minority?

00:13:18

Is it because they have a lack of jobs and barriers to get jobs or barriers to get education, the oppression that they've had over the years of people not thinking that they are able to do these things, teach, learn even, or understand the nuances of the language, or that it's not a real language, or that it was a created language by hearing people to help those poor Deaf?

00:13:47

What is your reasoning?

00:13:49

And do you believe that we know more about sign language than they do?

00:13:55

Is that possible?

00:13:58

And the last question connected to this, it's not just about the Deaf.

00:14:02

What about the hearing?

00:14:04

Do we know more about our spoken language than most clients who are hearing do?

00:14:10

Do we understand sometimes when they misspeak?

00:14:13

They use a phrase incorrectly or an idiom the wrong way in a inappropriate setting.

00:14:19

The grammar is not quite right.

00:14:23

Are we the language police?

00:14:26

How do you answer to these questions?

00:14:31

No matter what your belief is on these questions, can you back them up?

00:14:36

Can you explain what it is, what it means, your opinion on these matters, how they are important to you and why you think the way you think?

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:14:47

Hey, speaking of confidential, I mean controversial, click in the show notes where you can send me a voicemail or a text message and tell me what you believe.

00:14:57

Share your ideas or give me feedback.

00:15:00

Thank you.

00:15:01

Now let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:15:04

Does your view of accessibility change based on where you are from or where you're living?

00:15:12

In other words, …

00:15:13

Do hearing, hearing interpreters, non-interpreters, Deaf, Deaf interpreters, do their perspectives on accessibility change based on where they are?

00:15:27

Is it influenced by the place where they live?

00:15:31

The political environment, the educational environment, the development of the interpreting profession, Deaf rights, the legal framework, of what a language is and is not?

00:15:45

Do people think differently about what is accessible, what is not accessible, what is acceptable as accommodations or accessibility change from country to country?

00:16:00

And how does that influence our profession?

00:16:03

I know in the US, accessibility is a powerful subject with powerful opinions, strong opinions one way or the other, but usually accessibility becomes a priority, a human right to access information in your own language, especially those in the minority.

00:16:26

However, in other countries, it's not as strong or can be thought of differently.

00:16:34

I wonder why.

00:16:36

My thoughts are, and here I'm actually giving you my opinion, in the US, it tends to be very monolingual, English centric, and therefore the minority, the quote disabled minority, has more accessibility rights.

00:16:57

In Europe, we have many different nations with multiple languages, crossing borders, back and forth for business, for education, and therefore viewing language and accessibility is broader than the monolingual focus of the oppressed and the oppressor.

00:17:20

Because in a multilingual environment like Europe, we understand the difficulty and the practicality of offering every language.

00:17:32

We've been struggling with it for years.

00:17:35

And we also understand that we take responsibility for learning other languages.

00:17:42

Many spoken languages are known by the individuals here because they understand that their language is small, and they don't expect others from many other nations to know their language.

00:17:55

And therefore, they're not as adamant in that accessibility.

00:18:00

And that then transfers to the accessibility of the minority of sign languages.

00:18:08

So, the viewpoints are influenced by the majority viewpoint of accessibility of languages.

00:18:17

And so, from country to country, language to language, the viewpoints have more or less support depending on where you're from.

00:18:27

Does that mean we give in and say, yes, practically it's more, much more expensive to bring an interpreter for every single language in our group, in this conference, in this business meeting.

00:18:42

And so, the accessibility may be, well, hindered.

00:18:46

Most people will have to speak in English, even though it's not their native tongue, it's not even their second language, it may be their third or fourth language.

00:18:55

but everyone is expected to take responsibility for themselves and to have some understanding.

00:19:02

So, I just went around that subject of accessibility left and right.

00:19:09

Am I right?

00:19:10

Or did it make you think about accessibility in a new way?

00:19:14

Or does it matter what people's opinions are?

00:19:18

Is it that accessibility is a human right and therefore should be the thing that we all strive for, or should we be more laid back and do our best?

00:19:30

Which is it?

00:19:32

Should we be strongly opinionated or less so?

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:19:42

And the last controversial question or idea is: Interpreters are people too, therefore we…

00:19:52

Yes, I'm going to save that one for another day.

00:19:56

Ooh, things to think about.

00:19:58

Did I cause you discomfort?

00:20:01

Were you squirming a little bit when I asked these questions or when I said these things?

00:20:06

Did you think, oh, he's talking about Deaf?

00:20:09

He's hearing.

00:20:10

He can't do that.

00:20:12

Why?

00:20:12

Explain that to me.

00:20:14

We should be able to explain why, correct?

00:20:19

Did you think that's not right?

00:20:21

Or no, of course, that's wrong.

00:20:25

And did you explain why in a simplistic way, but a correct way?

00:20:31

If you can explain simply the why, the reasons behind each of these beliefs that you have or do not have, then you can show what you truly believe.

00:20:46

If you really believe something, you should at least be able to explain, describe, or show what it truly means and the reasons why.

00:20:59

It'll make us stronger and more confident in our profession the more we know about all of these opinions that we have to regurgitate every time someone asks, But why?

00:21:15

So, until next time, keep calm, keep your belief in interpreting.

00:21:22

I'll see you next week.

00:21:24

Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:10:07]