IW 173: Interview Camila Eurenius Part 2: Interpreting Pilgrimage to Self-Care

"Walk the walk. Talk the talk. Walk the talk."

Swedish sign language interpreter, Camilla, and I continue our conversation. We discuss her returning to the sign language interpreting profession after a long break in an adjacent field. We expand on the topics of connections in our communities, ethical boundaries and responsibilities, and self-care for interpreters.

Let's talk the walk together.

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Transcript

IW 173: Interview Camilla Eurenius Part 2: Interpreting Pilgrimage to Self-Care

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS] 

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:35 Tim

And now the quote of the day by American memoirist, writer and educator Patricia Hampl.

00:00:44 Tim

“The paradox: There can be no pilgrimage without a destination, but the destination is also not the real point of the endeavour, not the destination, but the willingness to wander in pursuit characterizes pilgrimage. Willingness: to hear the tales along the way to make the casual choices of travel, to acquiesce, even to boredom. That's pilgrimage a mind full of journey.”

00:01:20 Tim

This was a long quote, but it makes some wonderful points about our journey. Our pilgrimage, about having a mindset that's ready to pursue, what matters in life, to listen to the tales, the stories to be able to enjoy the trip.

00:01:41 Tim

Today, we continue the conversation with Camilla from Sweden. We discuss what it's like coming back from a small break, well, a long break from the sign language interpreting profession and how that, well, connects…

00:01:56 Tim

…to all the connections in the community. We expand on the concept of ethical boundaries, our responsibilities, and talking of pilgrimage, we talk about self-care and what it really means and how we can do it as sign language interpreters.

00:02:16 Tim

So, let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:02:22 Tim

Then what does it feel like coming back to only sign language interpreting?

00:02:27 Camilla

I think it's been really nice. Super. I, I've always felt welcome to come back and now I'm working. I live outside Stockholm in, in a smaller city called Uppsala and I work for them as well.

00:02:42 Camilla

They, they have the regional agency with a procurement, but they want to take on more hourly interpreters. So, that's also a battle [chuckling] I keep battling with myself. But since it's very close to Stockholm, I work quite a lot in Stockholm, and coming back that's where I work when I stopped. I felt really welcome both from colleagues and, and the Deaf community.

00:03:10 Camilla

It's just that sometimes you feel. But I met these people not that long ago, but they've become ol- older. [Tim laughing] And I'm like, yeah, I, I do know I have that too. But I think it's, it's, it's easier to see when you meet the, the retired group maybe.

00:03:30 Camilla

Because you interpret for them quite a lot, and now somebody might have to have some help when they're walking and… [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:03:38 Camilla

Yeah. And time really flies.

00:03:41 Camilla

And I think it comes as a shock for all of us sometimes.

00:03:45 Tim

Yeah, yeah, it's a shock for me when I go back to the States and visit. And a Deaf person comes up to me and, and I have no idea who they are. And then I realized I interpreted for them when they were a little kid, and now they're an adult. And they have kids. And I'm like, “How that doesn't make sense only been you know 2 seconds.”

00:04:03 Camilla

Exactly. That's also my feel-. And as you say with the youth, they were small because before the interpretation career I also worked in the Deaf school as an assistant and working the kids. And some of them now, you're like, what happened? How did that happen? [Tim chuckling] Yeah, but it's really fun to meet everybody. And I think that's also the lovely part of being a part of the Deaf community. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:04:31 Tim

Coming back to old friends and just having that connection again.

00:04:33 Camilla

Yeah.

00:04:36 Camilla

Yeah, it's really, really nice. I think.

00:04:39 Tim

Yeah.

00:04:40 Camilla

And not doing governmental paperwork because that's what it ended up being. And it was a struggle to, to write how to, yeah, get people out in employment. So, I think I'm not a paper organized person. No. [Tim: Yeah] This is so much more fun. [Tim: Yeah]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:05:05 Tim

From a professional standpoint, when you came back, what did you see was different and what was the same?

00:05:13 Camilla

Yeah, I think in my heart I've always been a sign language interpreter, and I will always be and that's always been the thing never leaving really. Because I've had it parallel, but I think nothing much has changed, unfortunately, in many ways, of course, because the salaries are very much set back compared to all the changes and structures and what's going on, and I think it's quite a lot of the same struggles actually.

00:05:49 Tim

Have you seen the topics that sign language interpreters are talking about? Have those changed or has it developed in a in a good way?

00:05:59 Camilla

Oh! [thoughtful]

00:06:00 Tim

Does that make sense?

00:06:02 Camilla

Yeah, it makes sense. I think just it's a very hard topic to answer.

00:06:08 Camilla

Because I think there's always been interesting things to discuss within our field and the last time when I went to Torino, I think there was a lot of interesting things on the agenda. [Tim: Mm-hmm] I think also in Sweden, maybe we we're not so much as the rest of Europe into…

00:06:29 Camilla

…we haven't, I don't know. I think it's the maybe the structure of the society, how it's built up with sign language interpreters with the Deaf, Deaf interpreters, and we have a couple trained now, which is very good. I think we work together fine, but I think…

00:06:49 Camilla

It's also individual how that works. [Tim: Yeah] I, I mean, in some ways, of course, it's so many different perspectives always.

00:06:59 Tim

Yeah. You mentioned Torino or Turin in Italy, with the last efsli conference. It was interesting. I talked with Isabella. I had her on the podcast talking about her research and how and why sign language interpreters become interpreters are motivated and continue interpreting and...

00:07:19 Tim

I think it all kind of connects to what you're saying. It, it has to do with the structure or the system that is in place in that society.

00:07:27 Camilla

Mm-hmm.

00:07:28 Tim

The working conditions which either encourages us not to burnout or doesn't support us in a way that keeps us motivated.

00:07:39 Tim

She mentioned the pay [Camilla: Yeah] is part of that. It, it really is. She also mentioned the same thing you did. The fact that you can go away, come back and you still have those relationships, those that Community connection, such a service-oriented profession allows us to – feel good.

00:08:00 Camilla

Yeah.

00:08:01 Tim

And enjoy that because it's not just the work, but it's also the connections that we make. That's what keeps us going.

00:08:09 Tim

You mentioned how it's different than some countries, but I think it's different in every country and we all have those struggles.

00:08:15 Tim

It's interesting to see how the struggle is different in each country. It's the same, but it's different and I think it's just the cultural differences perhaps.

00:08:25 Camilla

Yeah, maybe. And I think her topic was one of the most interesting parts because I think all countries should go and look into that.

00:08:34 Tim

Yeah.

00:08:35 Camilla

Yeah. And always in my mind, I'm always thinking always should write an article about this. I should do this. It's so many articles that's never been done unfortunately. Because I think that was really something to hang on to what they presented.

00:08:52 Tim

Yeah, exactly. Because we always need more interpreters. [Camilla: Yeah] We always need interpreters with diverse backgrounds.

00:09:00 Camilla

Mm-hmm.

00:09:01 Tim

And yet, we don't necessarily know what motivates people to come to the profession, or even to know about the profession. That's why, for me, her topic was really, it really hit home.

00:09:11 Camilla

But I also think, also that is also compared to before where you could feel like in the society when you are in different settings, the lack of knowledge in the society for the Deaf people.

00:09:31 Camilla

We need to still address it. I know we're neutral. We're not putting our nose into things, [Tim: Mm-hmm] but sometimes we actually do need to put the nose out there and say, well, if this is the person's third, fourth language and it's written in Swedish, you need to do this or you need to get knowledge to help these people further in the process.

00:10:00 Camilla

I think it's important and as agencies in Sweden, if you're employed, maybe that should be something they can provide.

00:10:16 Camilla

The, the problem, of course, is that the society doesn't know they're lacking this knowledge, [Tim: exactly] so they're not going to ask for it.

00:10:20 Tim

Yeah, it's a hard balance…

00:10:21 Camilla

Yeah, it is definitely, but I maybe that's one of the nice things with the job we always have development.

00:10:31 Camilla

Even though it might not feel that way because you learn how to handle different situations all the time, [Tim: yeah] and we'll never be done.

00:10:42 Tim

Yeah, the more experience we have, the more we're able to, like you said, develop those relationships in a way to where you can stick your nose in correctly a little bit more than [Camilla: yeah] people think you should, but you do it out of necessity [Camilla: yeah] to keep pushing those boundaries to let them know they don't know.

00:10:59 Camilla

Yeah. And we still have the frame that we try to stay in. But I mean, if we did not have the frame that would not work either, [Tim: yeah] but we know we're crossing the line and why.

00:11:17 Tim

Yeah, I like that view on our decision-making process, our ethical moral boundaries. They not only keep us at the right level, but they also allow us to know when to push.

00:11:28 Camilla

Yeah.

00:11:28 Tim

When we need to explain or to advocate at that moment for that reason.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:11:35 Tim

And I need an advocate in you. That's right. Share the podcast. Share the passion of our profession. Click on the links in the show notes and share, share, share. Thank you. Now let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:11:51 Tim

So, with your experience going to the US, trying to learn a little bit of American Sign Language.

00:11:57 Tim

And learning sign language early in school and then going abroad.

00:12:06 Tim

How did knowing other interpreters from other countries, how did that influence your work as a sign language interpreter in Sweden?

00:12:16 Camilla

It's always been an inspiration for me to be able to participate in different conferences abroad. [Tim: Mm-hmm] I've always been a traveler. I got that with my parents. We lived in Africa when I was a child, and I think that was also how I got into this traveling bug I seem to have many bugs in my life. [Tim laughing]

00:12:39 Camilla

But I love traveling and meeting different cultures and yeah, seeing different things and but I think, really, it's given a real enrichment to my sign language life to meet people from, from all over Europe and also America, I mean everybody comes to efsli sometimes it seems. [Tim: yeah] And I also had the possibility to go to South Africa when they had the first WASLI meeting.

00:12:58 Tim

Yeah.

00:13:05 Camilla

Well, I really think it's broadened the views.

00:13:10 Camilla

And even though I don't think everything is good in Sweden, we still have things that are really good. [Tim: Yeah] It's always that balance. And as you said, combined with Community, culture and all, but the interesting things is as you said, we struggle with more or less the same issues in all the countries. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:13:34 Camilla

And to, to have discussions with others about it, it gives meaning, I think. [Tim: Yeah] And having that network of people and knowing that if I'd end up in Prague, [Tim chuckles] in, in everywhere, and I'll be stranded, I can always reach out for sign language interpreter, which is amazing I think, yeah.

00:13:56 Tim

Yes, yes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Hiring that network to fall back on is, is nice.

00:14:02 Camilla

Yeah, it's very, very nice. And I think in the beginning I really tried to get more people to go, and I pushed for efsli and those possibilities. And I think actually some more, more people from Sweden do go now. I hope. [Tim laughing]

00:14:19 Camilla

But I – that is also what I feel now coming back that Stockholm University, for example, I know they're gonna go to Lisbon. [Tim: Good] So, I think, yeah, it's actually been more people has been caught by the bug. [Tim chuckles] So, getting the esfli [bug], but also we have the Nordic seminars here, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland, Faroe Islands. They are also very nice and giving and some people go to them also go to the European one, so it's very nice networking.

00:14:56 Tim

What language is used in the Nordic conferences?

00:14:59 Camilla

In the Nordic Conference, it's, it's English, [Tim: English?] even though, yeah, because we will understand each other more or less. Norway, Denmark, Sweden. But when it comes to the Faroe Islands, Icelandic and Finnish, it's…

00:15:15 Camilla

It's harder, I'd say so.

00:15:17 Tim

Well, good. If it's in English, maybe I can go.

00:15:20 Camilla

But you are not Nordic country. [Tim sighs disappointedly]

00:15:23 Camilla

Yeah, I think that is a dilemma, but who knows? I think they invite also people from outside the Nordic countries to present and things. So that's a possibility. [Tim: Yeah] No doors are ever closed. I think. I mean.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:15:42 Tim

Why not keep the doors open here? That's right. Donate with Buy Me A Coffee to keep the podcast going. Sharing the passion, showing the passion of our profession. Thank you. Now let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:15:58 Tim

So, we've talked a little bit about ethics and our boundaries. The framework that we work try to work within. What is your approach to decision making in the interpreting process, as far as ethical or moral and or the practical decisions that we ought to make, what is your approach?

00:16:19 Camilla

I want to be moral right and ethical right as well.

00:16:25 Camilla

And I think it's very hard to say.

00:16:30 Camilla

Because of the situation it's like always when you try to learn a sign and you ask somebody how do you sign this? And always the answer. It depends on the context, and I think also what we do depends on. (It's a boring answer which we also thought when we went to the training.) [Tim lightly chuckles] That “Why do they answer that way?” But I do, I, I mean, it's so much into that.

00:16:56 Tim

Yeah.

00:16:57 Tim

That goes back to your answer about the frame that we're stuck with in, I mean standing within. [Camilla chuckles: yeah] That's why it depends, because we will go outside that frame or outside that boundary for certain reasons, but only for those certain reasons and only at that specific time in that situation, blah blah blah.

00:17:16 Camilla

Yeah.

00:17:17 Tim

That's why we say it depends, but as experienced interpreters, we now know what it depends on.

00:17:25 Camilla

Yeah, because I think sometimes when the goal can be like, OK, today I'm gonna be strict. I'm gonna be not going out of the frames.

00:17:35 Camilla

But you kind of end up having to do a twist on that one anyway, sometimes. [Tim: Mm-hmm] So, I mean, I don't know if that's connected to the last couple of assignments I've had. Because also when you don't get enough information before you go, I think maybe putting the nose into something is more important at those things or at those assignments I mean. Because they think that they cannot provide the interpreter with information, because that's not confidentiality for them.

00:18:15 Camilla

But the more we don't have...

00:18:20 Camilla

It's not, yeah. Now I'm twisting the words here, but I mean, as we know, the more information we have in forehand, the better work we can do. But it's again the lack of knowledge in that way – not letting us know. But I also think some of the people I work for, they are also saying that at least we know that this is what we don't, we don't get from the municipality level.

00:18:49 Camilla

They are the ones being maybe more strict with things, but at least they are also open to if it takes a longer time, there's never a fuss about paying for the extended time or travel costs and things like that. 

00:19:08 Camilla

So, at least one of them I work for, she said, “OK, we get to take the bad with the good in one way.” And yeah…

00:19:17 Camilla

And we know it's like also a mindset, I guess to. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:19:22 Camilla

But, but in, in one way, last time I ended up in a place like that. ,I I thought, well, we should have been two interpreters.

00:19:31 Camilla

So how do we get across that afterwards? And the importance of feeling that the Deaf person doesn't get, to get the word as much because I'm in the process? So, then we have to fix it afterwards somehow.

00:19:50 Tim

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, in other words, step out of the box afterwards.

00:19:54 Camilla

Yeah. Again, again. Yeah.

00:19:57 Tim

Yeah.

00:19:59 Tim

So, you took a break for quite a long time, at least from full-time sign language interpreting, you might say.

00:20:06 Camilla

Yeah.

00:20:06 Tim

Was that part of your self-care or do you have some other way that you take care of yourself mentally, physically from the work that we do?

00:20:18 Camilla

I couldn't say it really was self-care. I wish we would self-care more. Actually. I think it's so easy to think or I should not say “we”, I should say “I”…

00:20:31 Camilla

…to just think that, ohh I'm open for assignments and I don't really put in time for myself, that, ohh now I'm need to book this massage and I need to do this and that, it always gets squeezed in between assignments or if I have time. So, my, my card for visiting the gym…

00:20:53 Camilla

…has not been used that regularly. [both chuckling] At least I like now, when I'm visiting in Denmark, at least like, you have to go to the forest. It's very close to have a walk in the forest and I love nature, and I think that for me is very – mind relaxing somehow. And I'm gonna go walking the Camino in August, 800 kilometers.

00:21:23 Camilla

So, I'm really looking forward to that as well, because that's just walking, walking, walking, and walking again kind of, [Tim laughing] eating also, [Tim: Oh, OK] good food, very nice and stopping for small breaks.

00:21:36 Tim

OK, so you're taking this walk and what's it called again the, the Way?

00:21:40 Camilla

The Way, yeah, I think it's called, I mean, there's many different ways the Camino, like Pilgrim walks, we are now gonna walk the French way. It's a route from Saint Jean Pierre de Port in France over the Pyrenees. And then you cross over to Spain and then you walk yourself to Santiago de Compostela where most people end up. [Tim: Mm-hmm] And there's you have the Norte, the North route.

00:22:06 Camilla

You have the Primitivo, which is more hard to find maybe places to sleep at and there it's more tough. But you have the Portuguese route, but you can also find, I think I don't really know the names La Plata or something. I think it's from Sevilla and from nearly everywhere in Spain you can find one route.

00:22:28 Camilla

But it's also connected to, through France and into Germany. And there is, I mean, when I walked the first time, I met someone who walked from his home in Germany. He walked for three months. He had such a small backpack. Amazing, I can say.

00:22:47 Camilla

But I mean, I at the time I, I think I had 50 liters in my backpack.

00:22:55 Camilla

But everybody saying that you should have 10% of your weight [Tim: wow] on the back maybe. And with some water. But as much as you can cut down the better it is.

00:23:06 Camilla

And some people are walking also, the last 100 on the French way just to get a diploma, which says that you've worked the last 100.

00:23:17 Camilla

And at the point also you have so much more people and some are coming in buses, so they do like day trips like the walk is a day and then they live in a hotel. [Tim: Mm-hmm] We live more like hostels and a lot of people in the same room. And sometimes you can get yourself a hotel room for a cheap price as well. [Tim: Mm-hmm] Yeah, but you can do this in so many ways. Spain is wonderful to walk in because of all these “albarregas”, hostels on the way. If you'd walk in the Swedish mountains, you have to carry the tent, the sleeping bag, the food and all that.

00:24:01 Camilla

I mean, you could get the water from the creeks. Absolutely. [Tim: hmm] But this is a very convenient and good wine to good price as well. [Tim chuckles] If you're into wine. So. Yeah. [Tim: Yeah] No, it feels like an easy way to, to do it. And it's very comfortable somehow.

00:24:21 Tim

Wow, now that's a walk.

00:24:22 Camilla

It's going to be a nice walk.

00:24:24 Camilla

We think we hope to do all 800 kilometers, but we're also knowing that time if somebody gets hurt, you have to have a break. And you cannot really train for this because even though you walk a weekend or a week at home, it's not gonna add up that many kilometers. [Tim: Yeah]

00:24:44 Camilla

So, the good thing I would say is to start slow maybe 20 kilometers a day and then maybe get up to 30, but still not push it too much because the fete needs to adjust. The body needs to adjust.

00:24:58 Camilla

And it's hard to train for it if you don't have a lot of vacation time.

00:25:02 Tim

That's true.

00:25:04 Camilla

Yeah, yeah, but I do recommend it. It's very nice.

00:25:07 Tim

I will think about it.

00:25:08 Camilla

Yeah, yeah, that should be something for you, I think. [both chuckling, Tim sighing]

00:25:14 Camilla

Ohh, just out walking for walking.

00:25:16 Tim

Yeah, we'll see. Hmm.

00:25:17 Camilla

Yeah, but I think self-care is very important, but I think most interpreters are not so good doing just that, that's maybe something we can help each other with more. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:25:34 Tim

So why do you think that is that they're not good at that?

00:25:37 Camilla

Well, I think because…

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:25:43 Tim

Oh! the answer is next week.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

Well, I may not be starting that long walk, 800 kilometers any time soon.

00:25:51 Tim

But Camilla, you gave me a lot to think about how our journey is our experience and how our experience is our journey. As Camilla talked about her returning to the profession after being away for a while, we see that it's the connections, the connections to all the people to the work itself, the feeling that we have from when we first started in the profession, that excitement and purpose that drives us on. 

00:26:20 Tim

If we have that, even if we leave and return at a later time, that purpose is still there. It's connected and interwoven between all of our networks, in the communities, and that can help us move forward from where we begin again. 

00:26:39 Tim

It also makes us reconsider what are our ethical boundaries when we look at stepping out-of-the-box, as we often do, as we often say, I'm going to step out of my role, blah blah, blah, and I've talked about this before. I truly believe in the interpreter's role as interpreter.

00:27:02 Tim

And we're not stepping out of our role. We are merely using the space that our role gives us. Use the whole space, be responsible for your actions, be responsible for what you know and what you can do. It allows us to move within the space rather than being confined within boundaries.

00:27:24 Tim

Are there truly boundaries, or is it merely a flexible bubble that we are in?

00:27:32 Tim

And its limits are confined to the situation at hand, the people involved, including those outside that we might influence later on, such as the next interpreter or the next clients. 

00:27:44 Tim

And lastly self-care. I agree with Camilla that most interpreters don't do self-care as much as they should, or don't think about it as much as they should. And I think a key point is what she said. This is something we should help each other with.

00:28:01 Tim

When we notice someone seems to be close to burnout, or someone seems to be flustered, or just over stressed. Perhaps we could step in and say maybe you need to take a break, whether it's a literal break in that job or a longer break.

00:28:24 Tim

Give yourself some self-care. I think it's an honest thing we should think about helping each other, supporting each other, not only in the work itself, but in our self-care as well. Perhaps we should call it Community care.

00:28:39 Tim

So, until next week, keep calm. Keep interpreting, Pilgrim. I'll see you next week. Take care now.

I'll see you next week. Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:29:23]