IW 169: SPOTLIGHT Anna Michaels Part 1: The Unknown Impact of Travelling ASL Interpreters

"Look at them yo-yos. That's the way you do it. Get your money for nothing and your 'terps for free."

Get ready for a great discussion by Anna Michaels and me about how it is to live outside the U.S. as an ASL/English interpreter. We talk about how the profession, and all stakeholders are impacted when interpreters from the U.S. travel to our regions.

We have an honest and straightforward discussion about this unique situation.

Take a deep breath and be ready to learn.

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Transcript

IW 169: SPOTLIGHT Anna Michaels Part 1: The Unknown Impact of Travelling ASL Interpreters

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS]

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:34 Tim

And now the quote of the day by Chief Dan George, member of the Tsleil-Waututh First Nation of Northern Vancouver, BC, Canada.

00:00:48 Tim

“Where no one intrudes, many can live in harmony.”

00:00:54 Tim

We're talking about spaces today and how others can visit and travel through the spaces in where we live. Specifically, I and Anna Michaels will be discussing other ASL/English interpreters who travel from the US and interpret in Europe, and how that creates some impact in our working conditions as English/ASL interpreters living outside of the US.

00:01:31 Tim

Get ready for some real truth, some authentic perspectives on how we as interpreters can affect one another's work.

00:01:40 Tim

Let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:01:46 Tim

My guest today is Anna Michaels. She's originally from the US, but she lives in London, England.

00:01:54 Tim

She is an ASL/English interpreter, qualified to interpret in those languages. Let's find out even more about her. And then we're going to have a discussion between two ASL/English qualified interpreters ‘bout some topics that you may not know about. So, let's get started.

00:02:16 Tim

Welcome, Anna.

00:02:17 Anna

Thanks, Tim. Really happy to be here.

00:02:20 Tim

Well, it's good to see you. We'll try not to take too long laughing and joking, but we really have some serious topics to discuss and go back and forth with what perspectives we have on ASL/English interpreting outside the US and what that really means.

00:02:41 Tim

First of all, though, let's, let's get to know who you are so everyone can compare themselves to you, and, as an ASL interpreter. How long have you been interpreting and where did you get your certification?

00:02:55 Anna

So, I have been professionally interpreting since 2009.

00:03:01 Anna

I studied at Northeastern University in Boston and went through very traditional interpreter training program there four years, including some mentorship and working experience during my time there. I graduated and I got screened as an interpreter in Massachusetts. There's a state screening they do. So that was my first qualification, and I did that immediately when I graduated.

00:03:23 Anna

And I my first job was working as a staff interpreter at a Deaf residential school.

00:03:28 Anna

So technically educational interpreting. But if you can imagine a Deaf residential school, you're not actually interpreting the class activities, [Tim chuckling] you're interpreting everything else because there's Deaf staff members, Deaf parents, lots of Deaf children. And so that was what I- where I, where I started. And while I was there, I got my educational interpreter certification.

00:03:49 Anna

So that was my first kind of nationally recognized qualification and then further down the line, I pursued RID’s NIC and achieved that.

00:04:03 Anna

But I actually had to take… I, I was living in the UK when I wanted to pass that, so I had to return to the US to take the exam. [Tim: Mm-hmm] But I did manage to get them to allow me to take the written portion of it from the UK. [Tim: Ahh] So, I only had to go back one time with that. Yeah.

00:04:20 Tim

Well, I did something similar, only I had to go back for both so.

00:04:24 Tim

I was- It was an extended stay in the US when I did that. Yeah, OK.

00:04:29 Anna

Yeah, I did try and convince them to let me take the performance one. I was at a point in time. I really didn't want to touch US soil, so I really, I tried to convince them to let me take it even on a protectorate. So potentially in Puerto Rico or - and the testing body had some sites in places like the Philippines. So, I really worked hard to try to be able to take the exam somewhere else, but I ended up taking it in the United States.

00:04:53 Tim

OK. Well, OK.

00:04:55 Tim

And so, you still interpret as ASL/English where you live now.

00:05:00 Anna

I do. So yes, my primary work is in between ASL and English.

00:05:07 Anna

Now in this, in this context, a lot more in person work than before, but obviously we've gone through a period of time when even work that's happening in the UK was still online. [Tim: Mm-hmm] That's shifting.

00:05:18 Tim

Right.

00:05:19 Tim

So, do you also do interpreting jobs throughout Europe or other countries?

00:05:25 Anna

Yes. So, I interpret largely in the UK, mainly because I've got two primary school aged children. So, being away from them a lot is challenging. But there are times, especially in kind of recent years, that I'll, I'll work across Europe mainly places within train distance, because that's my preference.

00:05:44 Anna

And…uh, there's also been some jobs in Asia or South America, but I've not, I've not been kind of travelling quite that far as in recent years. But Europe, yes, quite often.

00:05:55 Tim

OK, well similar to my work, although I've recently switched more to international sign rather than ASL, and that's for many reasons, one for scarcity of ASL jobs especially here in the middle of Europe.

00:06:12 Anna

Well, I think I might add, I've said that all of my work is or the work we're talking about is primarily in ASL. I would say that that's what the booking if you were to take a job sheet on the job and call it, see what's been requested and see what I'm being booked as – Yes, it's as an ASL interpreter.

00:06:28 Anna

I will argue that the majority of my work would not, if you were to watch the work itself and take away the booking confirmation, [Tim: Mm-hmm] and you look at the languages that are being used a lot more of what I'm doing is within the international sign sphere for a lot of reasons. They're not always one and the same.

00:06:44 Tim

Exactly. That is true, many people say, “Oh, I know ASL. We'll, we'll just use ASL.” And then I as an ASL interpreter, I see what they're using is IS or a mixture of IS, ASL and their native sign language. And so, for us we have to be, you know, versed in differences, new classifiers and work with that in a different way than just as ASL or just finger spelling everything we think may go out there which can't always be done since not everyone knows one-handed alphabet or even the English word.

00:07:22 Anna

Absolutely.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:07:27 Tim

OK, so there's a few struggles I see as an ASL/English interpreter. One finding jobs here. How to get paid.

00:07:38 Tim

And who actually watches our work, supervises our work, maybe even points a finger at us when we've done something naughty? And who decides if we're a good fit for that client?

00:07:52 Tim

Those are some of the struggles I think we have.

00:07:55 Anna

Yeah, I would say…

00:07:57 Anna

Another struggle that I have is explaining to requesters or people organizing work who might not understand or definitely don't understand the full context of what they're requesting, what the needs of the Deaf person are, me trying to explain to them that I might not be a good fit for this for a variety of reasons.

00:08:17 Anna

And, and kind of changing that assumption that ASL can be used as a lingua franca when the Deaf person isn't a user of the national sign language in that context.

00:08:29 Anna

You know we're not band aids. We can't be attached to a job just because the local sign language interpreters were like, “Well, I don't understand them. So, hire this person.”

00:08:39 Anna

Whether or not I actually could understand them is, is irrelevant. Oftentimes I can but trying to explain that to someone who's putting the request in is, is, is definitely a challenge.

00:08:53 Anna

Additionally, I think one challenge that we face as ASL interpreters in this context is:

00:08:58 Anna

What's happening with “travelling interpreters” or “visiting interpreters” coming from the States who are also qualified ASL/English interpreters.

00:09:08 Anna

But come over just for one job. [Tim: Mm-hmm] Or are really interested in, in the European context for personal reasons and spend 3 months here on a tourist visa and think, oh, I'll also pick up some work doing these things and the impact that has on us long term, umm, and short term. [Tim: Yeah]

00:09:28 Anna

So, I think that's definitely a, a challenge that I'm seeing a lot more of now than I did 10 years ago.

00:09:31 Tim

Yeah, I agree. In fact, when I first moved here in 2006 and since then it has changed, I wouldn't say rapidly, but I see it more often.

00:09:47 Tim

In that, I will be asked to do a job and for ASL/English. After we work out whether they actually mean ASL, because, [Anna: heh] “Well the, the conference is in English, so we should have ASL or, or BSL because that's English right?” [Anna chuckling: yeah] And I’m like, “Yeah, what about Australian?”

00:10:03 Anna

What about Ethiopian? You know, because the working-conference language in Ethiopia they use English because they have, you know, ten spoken languages. “I would – just will use ASL of course or BSL.” Yeah, yeah.

00:10:14 Tim

Exactly. Once we workout the language, if it is ASL, then they ask us how much, and for me, I've been trying to follow the standard international arena here in the European arena…

00:10:29 Tim

…of standard of this much, a daily rate or 1/2 day rate, that sort of thing, or even an hourly rate in some instances and try to follow those standards. And what happens is usually those conferences that are say in more southern Europe, they look at me with wide eyes and say, “Well, we can't afford that. Can you do this?”

00:10:50 Tim

And now I have the dilemma. Do I negotiate that? Or do I keep the standard for all the other interpreters in here so I don't bring down the standard. But then I have to realize, OK, so if I go down, that's helping this group have access.

00:11:11 Tim

And it's also about: what is the standard in that country compared to the other country? How do you balance the standard when the GDP's or the average salary of countries are widely different?

00:11:26 Anna

But also, not forgetting that this is how we earn a living. And what's the, the cost of living in the countries that we're living in because the UK is quite high, the cost of living. [Tim: exactly]

00:11:38 Anna

And what I can get with a pound is different than what I could get with a euro in, you know, a different country, a huge variety of countries.

00:11:45 Anna

I think both you and I are on the same page. We're not trying anything on. We're not attempting to like take advantage of anybody.

00:11:51 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:11:52 Anna

But you know, I also have to pay my bills and me taking time to go to another country to do a job abroad takes time away from what I'm doing at home with my children, with my family, preparing food, all these things. And…

00:12:08 Anna

And in addition, there's just something I wanted to, I just made a note that I wanted to touch on is the concept of travel interpreting so taking work because…

00:12:16 Anna

Often you and me have to- We can't do it from- There's no, there's no jobs in my local area. That wouldn't happen. [Tim: right] So, most of my work requires me to be away from home for a long time for at least two nights, usually. Minimum. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:12:30 Anna

And that's opportunity time that's lost. If you're paying me to come, I'm not just there for you from when the conference starts at 9 till the conference finishes at 5. I'm also there at 8:00 AM and 6:00 AM and midnight. And that's what you're paying for me to be there. Because if there is an emergency or a Deaf person in this context requires an interpreter at, in the middle of the night at hospital. Well, yes, that's going to be me. [Tim: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm]

00:12:55 Anna

So, rates are really challenging balance to make. [Tim: Yes. And… (sorry)]

00:12:59 Anna

And well, [both lightly chuckling] I also wanted to say the other, the other complicated, complicating thing of this is that...

00:13:05 Anna

I would assume it's the same for you. We - I know a lot of people in this context. I know a lot of the requesters, you know, you see the same people at a lot of different things. [Tim: Mm-hmm] So, we build relationships with them and we build friendships with them. And so, working in this context adds an additional layer of familiarity with the players that I never had working in the American context.

00:13:28 Tim

Right.

00:13:28 Anna

If something, if it's if I'm not a good fit for something, well, there's a whole line up of other interpreters that could come and fill that, but that doesn't exist here.

00:13:38 Tim

Right.

00:13:38 Anna

So that's definitely changed how I approach jobs and work and taking certain jobs or not taking certain jobs.

00:13:44 Tim

Exactly. It's very hard to not accept a job based on the person necessarily because sometimes I don't even know who the person is.

00:13:56 Tim

It may be a person in two countries over, or someone who's coming from the US and just popping in and popping out.

00:14:04 Tim

And they can either bring their interpreter, or they use the interpreters that are here, and so therefore we get to know those, and we get to become very flexible very quickly, adapting how we interact and what signs we use and don't use quickly.

00:14:26 Tim

And we're not able to refuse it once we start. In the US I can say, “Oh this is not working. I need to call the agency.” Have someone come and switch with me because it's not working. I don't have that option here.

00:14:39 Anna

Absolutely not, no.

00:14:41 Tim

And that ties into how much do we charge? How much is my time worth now? Because how much energy am I putting into this?

00:14:49 Anna

And risk, you're putting a lot of risk out there because you're putting yourself into situations that you don't have the backups to do what exactly what you just described. So, your professional status and your safety as, as a professional are at much higher risk and far less options. [chuckles]

00:15:07 Tim

Even considering how do I train myself for this? How do I improve the development of my skills in this area and so far it's been – experience, working with others doing the same thing, learning from each other. What have you done in this case or that case? You can't necessarily have formal education, or at least we don't.

00:15:30 Tim

Perhaps, that's a seed that we need to throw out there now.

00:15:34 Tim

All of that makes it a unique job for an ASL, I'm saying in quotes, “ASL interpreter” when you're not living in the comfort zone of the USA.

00:15:47 Tim

And I think a lot of American Sign Language interpreters would look at our situation and think, “Oh! That must be the dream job to be in a beautiful European city…” because many Americans, if they think of travel, they think the closest place to go to get rich history and lots of it in many different pockets. But it's all close together. They think Europe.

00:16:08 Tim

And so for them, it's like, “Wow, it's beautiful.” And I would say yes, it is. It's absolutely fabulous.

00:16:18 Tim

But at the same time, we have all of these struggles that we have to deal with, the differences. And that I think is one of the culture shocks, the professional cultural shock for interpreters who live abroad, not just American interpreters, but any interpreters realizing I can't do this the same way that I would normally do.

00:16:38 Tim

My system is totally gone and so I have to use what I can.

00:16:42 Tim

It’s good though, for interpreters, we're normally adaptable, flexible, but it's a “stuttering system” in the beginning.

00:16:53 Anna

I, I agree on that. And I think if that's the case, which I completely think it is, if it is a stuttering system in the beginning, then think about these visiting tourist type interpreters that are coming. They won't even, if this is the first time they're going to work in a European context and that's for one job. Well, they're going to be at the very beginning of that stutter. And… [Tim: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm]

00:17:16 Anna

And they won't have any of the, the background knowledge, the history, the cultural competencies that we've had for years or have been working with. And, and then they come in and do a job and then go home that stutters right at the beginning, they're right in the very, very beginning. [Tim: Mm-hmm] And how does that benefit people that are paying for and using the services that we provide.

00:17:37 Tim

Yeah.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

Speaking of paying for services, it is greatly appreciated when you Buy Me A Coffee, click on the links in the show notes to help share the passion of the profession. Thank you. Now let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:17:54 Tim

We've touched several times about American interpreters coming to Europe, and we'll just use Europe as a broad example here, coming to Europe to do one job or a job, but let's bring it to context here and kind of give the examples of it with many different perspectives about it, because many things connect to it.

00:18:15 Tim

We've already talked about the struggles we have. I think each one of those connect to a pop-up interpreter compared to one that's already ingrained in the, the non-stuttering system. [both chuckle]

00:18:29 Tim

I apologize to all of the non-native English speakers, I know this is probably difficult to get through now, so let me try to summarize.

00:18:39 Tim

You and I both have been living here for a while, working in American Sign Language and English, and all of the other language variants that come with that, here, and we have struggles of pay of standardization of pay of actually, having someone supervise our job or make sure we're ethically and morally...

00:19:03 Anna

Competent.

00:19:03 Tim

Competent. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. And then occasionally, I will be offered a job for ASL, and I start negotiating that. And then they say, “Ohh, it's OK. We have somebody already from the US.” and I say, “OK, good.”

00:19:20 Tim

But what has happened is this group needs - organization or conference or what have you, needs an ASL/English interpreter because there's an ASL user (a client as we say here in Europe) and many times, there's a connection to the US, where they can bring someone over.

00:19:40 Tim

And those interpreters are overjoyed because they will get a free trip to Europe and many times, they will even say “Ohh if you just pay for my hotel. My accommodations…”

00:19:51 Anna

They'll do the job, basically for free.

00:19:54 Tim

Yeah, “I'll do the job for free because I'm getting a benefit of a wonderful trip.” I understand that perspective. It makes perfect sense. It's like, “Oh, this is beautiful. I get to go somewhere exotic or different from where I'm used to do what I normally do in interpreting and then leave.” For us, what that does is it creates an imbalance in the working conditions for us.

00:20:17 Anna

Absolutely.

00:20:18 Tim

First of all, it takes away a job from us.

00:20:21 Tim

Which we rely on, which is this is what we do. It also creates a dynamic where this pop-up interpreter is in a situation may be working with the client who's actually an American. [Anna: Maybe.] Yeah, maybe. And they're, they're getting along interacting just fine because they understand each other from the schema that they're used to, or schemata even.

00:20:43 Tim

But that interpreter may be working with non-native English speakers, many different ones with different accents, different cultural contexts, and not understanding when they are stuttering in the system of interpreting.

00:20:57 Anna

Absolutely.

00:20:58 Tim

They may not, may not actually see that that is a problem, and they don't understand that they're also taking away our livelihood as well.

00:21:06 Anna

Yeah, it's, it's a real disruptor when this happens. And like you said, not just because we don't get the job, but that happens in any context, that happens in the American context, [Tim: Mm-hmm] but more so here obviously, because we're looking at a scarcity of, of work. [Tim: Yeah] But also you're right, it, it, it's a disruptor to the system. But also, I really want to just kind of focus in on something you mentioned which I think is one of those…

00:21:28 Anna

…contexts that you and I know very well, that in this context you will often have people using English when it is not their native language because it is the agreed upon language of any particular setting. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:21:40 Anna

And it's not even just an interpreter from an American context would come here and then possibly struggle more than you and I would to listen to all these accents and language choices and word choices and to fully understand them. But also, I don't know about you.

00:21:57 Anna

I don't want to speak for you, but I craft my work into English in that context very differently than I do when I'm speaking to all Americans, or all British people. [Tim: Mm-hmm] Or when I'm working in a, in, in a context where I recognize that there are many languages here but my work into English is very different. [Tim: yes] And I would argue that I don't think that awareness would be present in a person who's interpreting in this context for the first time.

00:22:25 Tim

I agree my vocabulary level is completely different. My word choice is completely different.

00:22:32 Anna

My pace, my accent changes. [Tim: Yes!] Like my accent will actually change to be highly intelligible. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:22:40 Tim

I normally don't use contractions, even if some of the non-native users are using them. I won't or will not use them. I use less idioms unless they have been using it in…

00:22:52 Anna

Unless it's an established language choice that's already been used. [Tim: Exactly!] I will often. Yeah, I will often use expansion techniques as well. [Tim: Mm-hmm] And you know, bracketing and layering of concepts in a different way than I would to people who are at ease listening to English. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:23:09 Tim

The same thing goes for ASL. [Anna: Mm-hmm]

00:23:11 Tim

Usually, people who are traveling, who are traveling even from the US, they sometimes will change their ASL because they might be in the midst of other Deaf who are from other countries and therefore they kind of change or tweak their ASL in a way so that anyone also watching them will understand.

00:23:32 Tim

That means they're using either, different classifiers, they’re finger spelling differently.

00:23:37 Anna

Or less, [Tim: Mm-hmm] much less finger spelling, but still the requirement is still there for us to use the appropriate English word that they're intending, right? [Tim: exactly] But they'll have made a clear choice not to finger spell it. [laughing]

00:23:47 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:23:48 Tim

And then you have exchanges between those two clients using some type of mixture of signed languages between ASL and say Czech Sign Language or British Sign Language, a mixture. [Anna: Mm-hmm] And so, you have to negotiate that.

00:24:05 Anna

And we are expected to interpret it.

00:24:07 Tim

Exactly. Exactly.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:24:11 Tim

I am always thankful for your support in sharing the passion of our profession. Buy Me A Coffee or two, or three, or 700. Click on the links in the show notes. Thank you. Now let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:24:25 Tim

There's another disruptor, I think. We both touched on it.

00:24:29 Tim

When I was talking about the standard rate of pay throughout Europe, it's usually 1/2 day or full day. And like I say, sometimes hourly, it depends on the situation or the country. Whenever we have that pop up interpreter and if they are, you know, coming for free, that lowers the standard right there.

00:24:50 Tim

And it also lowers the expectation of organizers.

00:24:54 Anna

Well, even, even if they do charge. And they do charge by the hour, which is standard practice, and they're charging at their local rate, which varies, they could be charging at a local rate in a State and community, that's, that is significantly lower than anything we've seen here, [Tim: Mm-hmm] so even if they are charging and they're charging in that way…

00:25:15 Anna

It sets the, - the mindset changes of, “Oh well, that's what I can get the same. I can get the same service for this price.”

00:25:22 Tim

Yeah.

00:25:23 Anna

And you know if, if the box is ticked, depending on who's requesting it, obviously there's a lot of people- This is not a generalization or a lot of, a lot of people – I work with a lot of organizers that are not there to tick a box. They're not there to put a warm body in a room. They're there to provide access and... [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:25:39 Anna

But if that's not the, [slightly chuckling] if that's not the requester and we're working with the tick, “a tick boxer”, then, then of course they're going to choose the cheapest option, but the disruptor is, is then long lasting here. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:25:55 Tim

Because when that organization asked me again say, “We can't get the last interpreter, are you available? And this is our budget.” and they based their budget on the last time. [Anna: Mm-hmm]

00:26:06 Tim

And I'm like, “Well, OK, that that is barely worth my time doing it going there.” because, like you said, I'm away from my family. For how long? Which means my wife can take less jobs.

00:26:19 Anna

Absolutely.

00:26:20 Tim

Because she's also a sign language interpreter, she can take less jobs because she has to be there to pick up her daughter from school from activities.

00:26:28 Tim

All of those costs are already there and counted.

00:26:31 Tim

To be fair to those pop-up interpreters, we're not blaming them.

00:26:36 Anna

Ohh no, their decision is completely logical.

00:26:39 Tim

Yeah, exactly. I don't think they understand what is happening. The dynamics that they are changing, the dynamics that they're changing, that's a beautiful phrase – anyway.

00:26:50 Anna

You should be an interpreter!

00:26:51 Tim

I should! Words just come out of my… [both laughing]

00:26:54 Anna

Wow.

00:26:56 Tim

So, if we have now “come into our system”, it's kind of balance. We understand how to work it and then a pop-up interpreter comes, it makes a wave through that entire system. And now we have to deal with that as well.

00:27:08 Tim

I would say that it happens frequently.

00:27:12 Anna

I would agree.

00:27:13 Anna

It happens frequently enough; those waves don't have time to die out. [Tim: Right.]

00:27:17 Anna

The ripples don't have time to, to smooth over before it happens again.

00:27:22 Tim

Exactly. It feels kind of odd to speak about this because in the US we've always been told, “Hush, Hush, don't talk about how much you get paid. Don't talk about all of that stuff.”

00:27:32 Anna

I feel like in Europe people talk about it, we share that information, [Tim: Mm-hmm] especially amongst interpreters that are working like you and I do in a, in a unique kind of niche arena. [Tim: Yes.] We… and the reason we talk about it is…

00:27:47 Anna

I think this comes from a place of such goodness that we don't want to overcharge, but we also don't want to undercharge because I know that it would affect you. If I undercharge that affects you. If I undercharge that affects the handful of other colleagues that I have very close relationships with, because they're always my teammates. They're always my coworker. [both laughing]

00:28:06 Tim

Yes, yes, yes.

00:28:08 Tim

That's another thing. Every time we have a job where we've tried to find the team, we always have to start over now. We need to negotiate. Is this what we want to agree on? OK, good. OK, we go to them and then they say, “Well, can you do this?” Where do we say, “No. This is where we stay.”?

00:28:26 Tim

Because we know there's a, a big possibility they will say, “OK, we won't use you.”

00:28:32 Anna

And that affects not only you as the person who's been asked, but also your co-worker, and the relationship between you and your coworker.

00:28:40 Tim

Yeah, and the relationship between you and the Deaf clients and the organizers. The organizers are like, “Wow, they're just too expensive.” And then they have to find someone else, or they get someone who's not qualified but will do it. And that affects the Deaf community in that area.

00:28:57 Tim

Which is a ripple effect throughout the regions here, and it's a fine line, especially when we have a pop up interpreter, all the ripples start to coalesce into this network of ripples.

00:29:10 Tim

And it's hard not to see if we're going to drown or not.

00:29:13 Anna

I think this ties in nicely with something that you and I touched on before we started recording. And then I said we need to keep this so we can put it in the interview not only about pay, [Tim: hmm] but about, and you mentioned it, who's supervising us?

00:29:26 Anna

You know, in a lot of European countries there are national organizations that regulate is the word that's often used. They're the regulator for these sign language interpreters in that country. [Tim: Mm-hmm] And they, you know, in the UK we had the NRCPD, which is the registration body.

00:29:44 Anna

And, and they are the ones who keep track of CPD and when you become qualified and if there's any breaches of codes of conduct. And, and their regulation, they’re a regulator. And I know this exists in, in other country context, but not all of them. [Tim: right] And then you look at the United States and you have RID for example.

00:30:06 Anna

And they take on that role. They also take on a few other roles like certification and things like this, but they're largely the place and the body that is regulating ASL interpreters. So, twofold who's regulating me, who's regulating you, but who's regulating the interpreters, pop-up interpreters? [Tim: Mm-hmm, yeah.]

00:30:27 Anna

I'm not thinking Big Brother who's watching us, but…

00:30:29 Tim

Right.

00:30:30 Anna

In the event [lightly chuckling] that something needed to be dealt with or addressed...

00:30:35 Anna

Who's responsible for that? [Tim: Mm-hmm] And I don't think there's a clear answer to that. I don't think there's a - I'm also not suggesting that there needs to be a specific [Tim: right] like that, that, that is the next thing we all - let's go build a regular, regulatory body for people like us. [both laughing]

00:30:53 Anna

But, but it's a really important question - is to even bear in mind when working with someone who's coming over:

00:31:00 Anna

What happens if things go wrong? What happens if it's not happened in a kind of a severe way like that, but it you know it is something that does happen in our profession. [Tim: Yes]

00:31:07 Anna

And also unfortunately for the pop-up interpreters that are really excited about doing this, I think they should also start considering whether they are reaching immigration rules [Tim: Mm-hmm] by working.

00:31:20 Anna

That's why the immigration rules are there. They're there actually to protect the residents. [Tim: Yeah.]

00:31:25 Anna

And, I would think that a lot of the times that people are coming and doing what works like a single job, I'm, I'm not a visa specialist. I don't know the visa regulations in all of these countries. I know what affects me and I know what I can and can't do.

00:31:38 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:31:39 Anna

And I would argue that I would say that quite a lot of the work that's being done by visiting or traveling interpreters is outside of the scope of what their entry to the country allows them to do. [Tim: Right] People can make their own decisions, but I think informed decisions would need to be something that I would argue for.

00:31:59 Anna

If they then choose to do that, that's their decision. But as long as they're aware that there could be visa breaches in the event that you do work in, in, in another country. [Tim: Yeah]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:32:12 Tim

Now that's a discussion. Our intention is not to offend any other ASL interpreter. It's merely to inform because most people don't understand or realize what life is like as an ASL interpreter outside the US. We have had a wonderful discussion back and forth about the many struggles that we've had to work through and to develop strategies in the interpreting process to create interpretations that are meaningful and that fit these specific scenarios that we never encounter in the US.

00:32:51 Tim

And we even mentioned the fact just living here, we understand multiple situations that travelling ASL interpreters have not experienced in the same way.

00:33:04 Tim

So next week we finish this conversation detailing a lot of aspects of our life outside the US and hopefully give you some insight in how it's different, how it's not perfect.

00:33:19 Tim

And it's not all rainbows, but it is our lives.

00:33:25 Tim

Thank you for the intrusion into yours. Until next week… Keep calm. Keep intrusions into your interpreting at a minimum. I'll see you then. Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:34:14]