IW 161: SPOTLIGHT Zane Hema Part 1: Oceania Interpreter Training Project

A Pacific Plea turned into a Project

We shine the SPOTLIGHT on fellow sign language interpreter Zane Hema and the team he works with in this episode. The light spreads as Zane illuminates the details of a grand project to bring formal training to sign language interpreters throughout Oceania. What started off as a conversation and requests for support became a blossoming 26-week program.

Enjoy part 1 of the project's story through the eyes of Zane Hema.

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Transcript

IW 161: SPOTLIGHT Zane Hema Part 1: Oceania Interpreter Training Project

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS]

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:34 Tim

And now the quotes of the day, the first one by Leonardo da Vinci.

00:00:40 Tim

“The greatest discoveries come from analyzing the smallest details.”

00:00:46 Tim

And the second by Brandon Sanderson, American author.

00:00:53 Tim

“The purpose of a storyteller is not to tell you how to think, but to give you questions to think upon.”

00:01:01 Tim

Today we spotlight a new project, well, an ongoing project through the eyes of Zane Hema, our wonderful friend from down under, from Australia.

00:01:15 Tim

Zane takes us through how this project got started, how it developed and what challenges they faced as they've been going through it.

00:01:25 Tim

What is this project? Well, it's a look into a first training program for a group of countries that have no formal training so far.

00:01:38 Tim

It's a look at history in the making.

00:01:41 Tim

Several of our countries have gone through something similar, and this one's happening right now in 2025.

00:01:50 Tim

I can't wait to hear more.

00:01:52 Tim

Oh! and why did I have those quotes? I think it'll become apparent when you hear Zane describing this great project. So, let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:02:09 Tim

Well, my guest today has been on the podcast before. His name is Zane Hema. And for those of you who did not listen to the first episode that he was in, why not?! Go back and listen to it now and then come back to here.

00:02:22 Tim

Zane is from New Zealand, lived in Australia, moved to the UK, became a sign language interpreter, hopped around Europe a few times to bug people like being on the Board of efsli, and WASLI and, well, numerous other things that he's done and accomplished as a sign language interpreter, educator, lecturer, you name it he’s done it.

00:02:42 Tim

Today we're going to talk a little bit about what he's doing now. He's back in Australia and he's headed a project that's helping the development of our profession in that region and we're going to learn a little bit about it today. So, saying welcome back.

00:02:59 Zane

Thank you, Tim. Thank you for asking me to come back and chat. It's really...

00:03:07 Zane

Hey, I'm really. It's quite a privilege to be back and have a chat with you and be able to talk about something that's been quite close to my heart for the last, um, since 2023.

00:03:16 Tim

Two years. I was thinking it was only about a year. But first of all, just give us an overview. Tell us what is this project? What is the mission and how did it develop into this project?

00:03:27 Zane

Great question. While in a nutshell I have worked with a team of awesome people to run a 26-week training program for sign language interpreters across the Pacific Islands. In particular, the islands of Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands, Vanuatu, Karabas, Samoa and Fiji.

00:03:50 Tim

And can you spell all of those really quickly? No, I'm kidding. [both chuckling]

00:03:55 Zane

Well, actually if you put “Oceania” into Google, you'll find the majority of those islands. There are other ones, but they don't have sign language interpreters on all of them, these are the major ones.

00:04:06 Tim

Ah.

00:04:07 Zane

And the journey started way back in 2023, at a WASLI conference in Jeju Island, South Korea. During the conference, there's times for the different regional countries to get together. So, I went to the Oceania regional meeting.

00:04:23 Zane

And there was a just a, a, a plea, for training. Only because there has no formal training in any of those countries. But they came up with some ideas around, is there possibility for us to provide some training, however that might look? And not just in one of the countries – [but] across the Pacific.

00:04:48 Zane

And so that was when the seed was planted.

00:04:51 Zane

And a little bitty subcommittee was formed, and in that subcommittee just was myself, and the WASLI regional Rep her name is [Elise Kawakitini?].

00:05:02 Zane

She's one of the regional Reps, there’s two in Oceania, the other ones, [Chris Northam?].

00:05:07 Zane

And so, we just began to have dialogues and conversations about what might that look like? [Tim: Mm-hmm] And so, the project be-, well not the project began, the conversations about putting together the project began.

00:05:22 Tim

Was this a project under a university or was it just under this subcommittee? And how did it blossom into doing this? This, this, this and having a schedule having people join?

00:05:33 Zane

Well…

00:05:34 Zane

It was not under the university; it was just going to be ideally a group of volunteer teachers coming together to teach a group of selected individuals from across the Pacific a curriculum. And so, a lot of the early conversations were around just this idea of: How do we make connections with the people that are needing the training?

00:06:00 Zane

Elise, she was saying she has connections already with them and so her plea wasn't a […] an individual plea, but on behalf of some of the people she'd been talking to, who had been saying to her, we need training, we need training.

00:06:15 Zane

Then she thought she didn’t like nothing... like doesn't want a short-term program. Short term programs are something historically that happens across some of the islands. People go in, they lecture, they leave and their things… Whilst, that's useful, it… The footprint of and the impact is not as great as if perhaps we look at other ideas. So, she said. Could we do 26 weeks? And we all, actually we go, “It's possible because…” 

00:06:43 Zane

What I wanted to do is I wanted to, I wanted to know what they wanted.

00:06:45 Zane

But then we had to talk about Well, you want 26 weeks, we're gonna need a number of things. We're going to set up…

00:06:51 Zane

…probably another strong committee. We need to have a curriculum. [Tim: Mm-hmm] We need to have a group of teachers who are keen to do that voluntarily.

00:06:59 Zane

We need to have processes in place as to how we might, umm, [make an] expression of interest to get an input from the people that she was saying wanted the training.

00:07:11 Zane

Anyway, that all happened, but what we had to do is we realized that two people were not enough [Tim: Mm-hmm] to put this together. And so that little committee that I talked about, we brought over time, we continued to add people until it got to a team of six, three people from the Pacific Islands and three from Australia. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:07:32 Zane

And, uhh, …

00:07:34 Zane

What we did is all that work. We looked at different curriculums, we ended up taking extracts from the diploma program.

00:07:41 Zane

And we created a…

00:07:44 Zane

What do you call it? A curriculum for the “track 26 weeks”. We created expressions of interest and sent them out. We got it back… 95 people responded to the expressions of interest. It was never going to be face to face. It was going to be online.

00:07:59 Zane

And so, we had to then have ongoing discussions around what would our maximum number be and how might we agree criteria to, to cream off the Top 40 or 45, which is what we eventually did. We have to have expressions of interest for trainers to let them know this is what we're setting out to do.

00:08:21 Zane

We had to have conversations with them (because none of us – we’re all experienced teachers), but we've not had any experienced teaching across Pacific Islands.

00:08:32 Zane

And you might think that that's not really that much of a big thing, but actually the world that they live in, ah, the traditions they follow, the customs they have, the languages they speak and the history that they have is quite different from those of the students that we teach here.

00:08:45 Zane

So, we embarked on their journey of bringing in a cultural etiquette consultant to spend some time training the trainers, not to teach because we can teach.

00:08:57 Zane

It’s more about how do we work more effectively with people from the Pacific island nations. This is all in preparation, so the, the, the, the, the program hasn't started, but we're just sort of trying to put the framework and the foundation in place. And it took a lot of time.

00:09:15 Zane

And that we finally agree. We would like to start. We finalized a curriculum. We managed to pull the team of 12 trainers together with a group of 45 potential students to come and we wanted to have a bit of a international launch. So, we asked the WASLI President, if he and a few other people uh, the president of the Deaf Association of Karabas, the president of the Australian Sign Language Interpreter Association to come and just be part of the program to, to launch this big, huge project and eventually kicked off on the 2nd of October 2024.

00:09:56 Tim

And you've done all of this online? [Zane: Online, all of it online.] Even the launch? Did you bring them together for the launch?

00:10:03 Zane

Even the launch, I was in London when it launched, but we had people connecting from all around the world to the launch. [Tim: hmm]

00:10:10 Zane

It, it, it's…

00:10:13 Zane

It's been huge, been huge in ways that we've not really considered, umm…

00:10:20 Zane

Because… Well, for a number of reasons, I think there was a lot of apprehension in the early stages. Some people were a little bit concerned that online is not the best way to teach people, but didn’t offer an alternative as to what might be if they didn't - couldn't afford to go there. [Tim: Mm-hmm] Some people consider that six countries would be too much to try and handle all at once, especially since they come from varying cultures.

00:10:47 Zane

Some people felt that some countries were slightly more ahead than others, and that that might make it difficult. Some felt that the program was too long and that they, people may not be able to last the distance.

00:11:02 Zane

So, there's a lot of concerns and a lot of challenges expressed in the early stages, but the thing I think that's just fundamental is that we remain true to what they said that they wanted.

00:11:15 Zane

And sometimes you know you can, you can say, well, this is what I want thinking this is what's best and some of that may not or may not work out. We said, OK, you want 26 weeks, we'll try and put that together for you. You want six countries. We'll try and put that together for you. If someone thinks you can't be 26 weeks that's really actually not part of the equation, because that's what you want there. And they go, “That’s what we want. And we feel we can run this 26 week. Why are people saying it’s too much? No, I think 26 weeks is too long for those people?”

00:11:44 Zane

And we go, “ehhh, Talk to the people!” [Tim chuckling] And so, you know the project kicked off and…

00:11:48 Zane

Ahh, from the very first week, week 1 we, on the 2nd of October, we had a, uh, what do you call it a, umm… We had to have so many systems in place to mark registers to keep hold of people to design assignments to. We also got a message that we could apply for some funding, because we we're gonna do this all for nothing. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:12:11 Zane

We have to take time out to complete the funding application and the due diligence forms huge amounts of work, but we were really fortunate because…

00:12:21 Zane

In the end, the British High Commission, the decided to fund the project to the value of $40,000. [Tim: Mm!]

00:12:28 Zane

And the Australian Sign Language Interpreter Association…uh, ASLITA, The Australian Sign Language interpreter and Translator Association, their new name. They have a Fund called Creating Opportunity Fund and that fund has also provided sponsorship of $10,000 and so…

00:12:48 Zane

Literally the week we started, we already knew we had 10,000 from the Australian Association. The first week we started, we found out that it was successful in getting the, the $40,000. [Tim: Wow] And whilst that was wonderful, it now added another huge level administration as we had to now be accountable for money.

00:13:07 Zane

We don't have our own bank account, so we have to use with us the Australian Association of Sign Language interpreters, but we can purchase their service and they were more than happy to support us.

00:13:18 Zane

But what happened is we just started this program.

00:13:22 Zane

We went online and there's 45 people. [Tim: Mm-hmm] And we realized, we have a plan, but what we found, I have to say is we had to make changes along the way.

00:13:37 Tim

Yeah.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:13:37 Tim

A big thank you to everyone who shares this podcast with a colleague and friend. If you want to support the show even more, check out the Show Notes for links to Buy Me A Coffee because it's very embarrassing to fall asleep during an interview. Thank you. Let’s go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:13:54 Tim

Before we get into those changes…

00:13:56 Tim

They wanted 26 weeks, but what was the goal? What did they actually want after those 26 weeks? Was it to improve their skills or was it to improve their knowledge of theories or what was it they were actually wanting to accomplish?

00:14:12 Zane

Yes, that's a great question. What they wanted to accomplish was that they know and they saw that it took the training goes on in other countries, particularly New Zealand, Australia, and that's a formal based training. [Tim: Mm-hmm] 

00:14:27 Zane

Umm, and they are without formal based training and wanted to able to get access to what professional training which others are taught. [Tim: Mm-hmm] They would be able to enhance their skills, their knowledge, and their practice as a result of the training. That's the main goal.

00:14:47 Tim

And so, as the trainers, you had to figure out well in 26 weeks, what is it they want? But what is it we can actually give. How you pick the curriculum in a way that is actually matching what they want when it's kind of hard to know what you want when you don't know what you're asking for. So, I imagine that was probably part of the plan overtime.

00:15:08 Zane

It is. Not only- Umm well the curriculum, by and large remain the same. [Tim: OK] And there was… we consulted with the people. It didn't change too much because it's what it's taught to the majority of interpreters around the world. [Tim: yeah] What actually changed is our delivery. [Tim: hmm]

00:15:28 Zane

Uh… and the way, we engaged.

00:15:31 Zane

So, we found out very, very quickly that um, that in some of the countries, English is not their first language.

00:15:38 Zane

And our first assignment was to be given in English. And what we quickly worked out was that, that was problematic. In that we could not tell when students submitted their work, whether they had misunderstood the question or they weren't understanding the content. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:15:57 Zane

And so, from then on, we've changed the format of all assessments.

00:16:01 Zane

They have options.

00:16:02 Zane

They can do it in a conversation with a trainer. They can provide video evidence. You can have, uh, whatever format which will be allow you to engage with us, but at the same time ensure that you've understood what we're asking you and therefore better to be able to respond.

00:16:24 Zane

One of the difficulties is we're not trained in their sign languages and so, we couldn't give them sign language interpreting materials to actually interpret.

00:16:35 Zane

So, we took on a more reflective approach so that the four assignments that we have, there's more about getting into your mind to see if learning has taken place, but also how as you reflect upon that learning, how might that make your interpreting practice a little bit different? So, we've come in from that angle.

00:16:55 Zane

We had week twenty….two last night.

00:17:00 Zane

And that was the third assessment. We had them all arrive. They all had to come with a story, an interpreting story.

00:17:07 Zane

And it was just so awesome, because interpreters love telling stories about interpreting. [Tim chuckling] I thought that, and these people are no different. So, they came on to the class, and they were all put into a breakout room with a trainer. And they we have half an hour slots so that they could tell their story.

00:17:26 Zane

And we were having a sort of guided discussion. So, it's not about saying you have to know and be able to do XYZ and then… so much as can you tell your story. [Tim: Mm-hmm] And within your story, can you talk about some of the things that didn't go quite right [Tim: Mm-hmm] or got in the way you're interpreting?

00:17:48

And can you talk a little bit about how you dealt with that.

00:17:53 Zane

In a way that's sort of like saying we're talking about the Demand and Control Schema, but we didn't want the terminology to get in the way so much as for them to understand. It does have a name, but are they able to look at their work and say, “Yeah, the teacher talks too fast I had to ask her to slow down” or “There was so much noise in the classroom with everyone talking, I couldn't hear what the teacher was saying, and I had to say to her. I'm sorry. I can’t…” You know, those sorts of – these are real issues that interpreters face. [Tim: Mm-hmm] And we wanted to teach them the Demand and Control Schema…

00:18:28 Zane

…which might have been a bit ambitious in a way, [both chuckling] but actually what, what it is… To have those one-on-one conversations. It was clear to me that they are able to describe when things go wrong.

00:18:41 Zane

It has a name.

00:18:42 Zane

That wasn't as important as them to tell a story and be able to identify what was wrong and identify how they went about dealing with that and validating whatever they want and then looking later on to perhaps building on that terminology.

00:18:57 Zane

You know how we were talking about that teacher about this talking too fast. We call that a demand. When you asked her to slow down, we found that the linguistic type demand and that was a… Anyway… [Tim: uh-huh]

00:19:08 Zane

Because not to say it’s any less important, it's just if we focus too much in my view, because we've got multiple language speakers across multiple cultures I think you've gotta…

00:19:22 Zane                                                                                                                                        

Yes, at some point they need to learn the terminology, but if, if your students can talk about their work…

00:19:28 Zane

And tell their story and identify some of the complexities of it and how they dealt with it…

00:19:33 Zane

I think we’ve moved in the right direction, even though you may not be able to, you know, necessarily label it correctly, it's not as important as the ability of doing that.

00:19:41 Tim

Exactly as long as they're not calling the teacher, “You're such a demand”, then we're OK. [jokingly]

00:19:47 Zane

I need to control you. [both laughing]

00:19:48 Tim

Yes, I'm sure Robyn laid that out in her work.

00:19:52 Zane

I do, but I think when teaching it to people who have never, umm, they’re not even the habit of talking about their work. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:20:02 Zane

Not to say that it's not helpful. It's just…

00:20:05 Zane

It's… needs to be provided in different stages and so this is an opportunity for us to provide that Stage “talk about your work. Identify those sort of things that go wrong and there's you know there's actions and then at the later stage we go. Let's revisit this and, and, and take a little bit further, or…”

00:20:20 Tim

Yes, exactly. So, with 40-45 students in six countries, [Zane: Mm-hmm] who did you have groups from each country and did they work together and kind of get that…? What is it called, the group dynamics of, of teaching each other, [Zane: Yeah] what they may not get in the session with the teachers?

00:20:41 Zane

Correct. Umm. That was another area that was really interesting for us.

00:20:46 Zane

We had six countries, as you say, we had multiple from some and few from others and sometimes we would do activities and breakout rooms. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:21:02 Zane

And we would try to put people from different countries in the breakout rooms, which at times wasn't as effective as putting them into their own country breakout rooms. Partly, that was because in their country breakout rooms they could switch to their own language. [Tim: Yeah]

00:21:18 Zane

But there were moments when having them, I think as the course progressed further and further, it became a little bit easier because they had more of a connection with each other.

00:21:30 Zane

And I think they have enjoyed being part of the group, but not just their own country, but right across the region. And there's been the most cross connections happening.

00:21:41 Zane

They've been coming regularly together. The original 45 number has, like every course it has reduced, but we have, I think there's 29 in class the other day and we're here we are week 22 and it's 29 in the program. That's pretty cool.

00:21:57 Tim

Yeah, that's good. [Zane: Yeah]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:22:03 Tim

You had training at the beginning for the teachers, [Zane: Correct] but it was more about the cultural differences and nuances that they had to think about in delivering the messages.

00:22:14

Did you have to have ongoing training for the teachers?

00:22:17 Zane

Officially no. But we assigned umm, three of our committee members to become what we call cultural consultants. And so, whilst we're having our weekly training going on actually behind the scenes [we had] an operations team meeting going on to review the week to take advice on whether things could be better or change, and how that might look like.

00:22:43 Zane

And they were really, really helpful. I mean there was multiple times where some of the teachers in preparing their lessons and to preparing activities, have created scenarios because that's what we do.

00:22:57 Tim

Always. [chuckles]

00:22:58 Zane

Some of the scenarios according to our cultural consultants either were relevant or didn't exist to the extent… say, for what we wanted.

00:23:06 Zane

They suggested that if we're talking about…

00:23:13 Zane

Something just, you might have a local village where the local chief is addressing the members of the village, and you might need it to be interpreted. There are certain protocols around respect and being humble and value which can't be contravened. 

00:23:29 Zane

So, if you're an interpreter working, for example and you need to have clarification, we would say, “Oh, I need to seek clarification” and you would stop the person potentially, or if it's a conference you may not, but you need to have another strategy up your sleeve. They’d go, “Oh, no we wouldn't stop the chief.”

00:23:51 Zane

Because it's just disrespectful and taboo. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:23:55 Zane

And then they would go on, “Well, if I had a second coworker, I would look to them.”

00:24:01 Zane

And hopefully I can get off my feed, what the chief would say. If I don't have a coworker and I'm stuck on my own, I'm stuck and I'm just gonna go, “I'm sorry I missed what had happened. I'm, I'm probably, if it's OK, I'm gonna wait out of respect until he's finished and then follow it up.”

00:24:21 Zane

And then there’s situations where they were saying, “Ah, in some medical settings, the doctor can switch languages.” [Tim: hmm] There's thousands of languages spoken in Papua New Guinea and they find themselves in situations where they're not working between 2 languages, but multiple languages and a medical technique.

00:24:40 Zane

And so there's this very precise scenarios which we're not on our radar at all. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:24:47 Zane

And we found that actually we adapted our resources, and our scenarios to fit the world that they live in, frankly. And that's what we've done.

00:24:59 Zane

And that’s what the consultants on our team that they gave, “But that's not gonna work. That doesn't make sense. Or should we talk about legal interpreting?” Etc., etc. They would advise us on how best to engage? [Tim: Mm-hmm] We took that as a measure from the original cultural etiquette consultants, engage with them, talk, encourage them.

00:25:18 Zane

They may be a bit apprehensive at the start, but you know, keep that door open and one of the things that's been nice, I don't know, hallmark is people…

00:25:28 Zane

People have talked. And in their talking, they're telling their story and in telling their stories, we at the trainers are learning more about the world they live in and therefore, can we consider how we might approach or engage or change our delivery or change our resources, their living resources. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:25:48 Zane

And that's the other thing that the cultural consultant called up for some of the resources we used in the classroom, say for site translation were documents we got from one of the countries (I can't remember which one). But you know, I mean, it's sort of…

00:26:00 Zane

We are a good group of teachers. We’re just not experienced in, in working across the Pacific island nations. [Tim: Mm-hmm] And I love them all.

00:26:07 Tim

So, you didn't have interpreters for any of the interactions, it was just through English. [Zane: correct] OK. Did you have to shorten the curriculum or the syllabus or syllabi in certain ways, because you had to take more time to get certain points across or was it more of a, this is great, but we can cover it by these conversations and not go into the detail of this, you know, theory what have you?

00:26:34 Zane

Ohh a variety of those things to be honest. I think we did as we started out need to be mindful of the words that we used, the assumptions that we made, and the pace at which we spoke. And sometimes that was at the cost of content. [Tim: right]

00:26:50 Zane

But it left a spirit of, we really are working hard, trying hard to work with you, and it's gonna be good. And it's gonna be great. It's gonna be wonderful. Sometimes, there's a huge amount of content to get across and some of the teachers would come away and just go, “I'm not sure I hit the mark. There was a little bit of quiet there for a while.”

00:27:11 Zane

And so we engaged with the cultural consultants and, and you know just…

00:27:16 Zane

I think when you’re learning about being a sign language interpreter, we didn't want to dumb down curriculum and make them go, “Well, we just think that you can't cope with this, so we won't teach you it.” It's not that. That's not what we did. We came knowing that they’re just as capable as we are. And they... But the thing is they've got lived experience of working as a sign language interpreter. They just haven't got the ability to reconcile that with any, within any framework.

00:27:36 Zane

That's for this part of the program. [Tim: Mm-hmm] So, our main goal was to validate always those stories, whatever they were. Even though if people were to judge them in the context of where we work in our own countries, they go, “No way!” That's not the point. We're not in our own country. We're somewhere else entirely. We validated those.

00:27:55 Zane

But we, um, we scaffolded the curriculum. Scaffolding means that every lesson built on the one previous.

00:28:06 Zane

And indicated a reason, a connection to what was going and hopefully in doing that they realized that we're weaving. That's not sort of all here's one topic out of the blue and next week, another one out of the blue. And hopefully you'll make sense overall.

00:28:22 Zane

This is we're going to start little, but actually by the year end weave a tapestry of knowledge, a tapestry of engagement, a tapestry of a, a way of thinking about your work that's different, [Tim: Mm-hmm] that up until now you've not had.

00:28:37 Tim

How did the weekly lessons look?

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:28:44 Tim

Wow, how rude. Do you want to know what the lessons looked like?

00:28:48 Tim

Well, you have to wait until next week. Yep, I did that. I apologize. (No, I don't.) What a great episode, learning about this new project from Zane.

00:29:02 Tim

And not knowing about this project makes me even more curious what else is happening in the world that we don't know.

00:29:10 Tim

The development of our profession is great and it's happening everywhere. This project shows us what can happen with a few ideas, people getting together and discussing what is needed, knowing what is wanted and supporting each other and learning how to teach others where they learn knowing that they learn or can learn from themselves just by learning how to talk about what it is they do.

00:29:37 Tim

Reinforcing that self-learning, the self-analysis and reflection can truly bring out the curiosity and motivation to learn more. Just from today's episode, I get that we should all begin the habit of discussing what we do, discussing every gig that we have wondering and analyzing whether or not what we're doing is proper was the best way to do something. Why we had challenges, why something didn't work right, or why it did, and how we felt in those moments.

00:30:19 Tim

And how we can replicate the good things that we do. So don't miss out next week to hear the end of this interview of this spotlight on Zane Hema and the great work that he's leading and his team is doing in Oceania. Until then, keep calm and keep telling your interpreting story. I'll see you next week. Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:31:20]