IW 160: Interview Julie Kléne Part 4: Interpreter Recipe – Curiously Respectful, Humbly Aware

Yes... I just wanted to... Wait... (Wow, I can't get a word in.)

This week I finish the conversation with Julie Kléne, an LSF/French sign language interpreter. She explains more about the profession in France and shares some insights into developing and improving as a sign language interpreter.

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Transcript

IW 160: Interview Julie Kléne Part 4: Interpreter Recipe – Curiously Respectful, Humbly Aware 

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS]

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:35 Tim

And now the quotes of the day, the first one by Freya Stark, English traveler and writer.

00:00:43 Tim

“Curiosity is the one thing invincible in nature.”

00:00:48 Tim

And the second quote by Albert Einstein.

00:00:52 Tim

“I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.”

00:00:59 Tim

Yes. Today we speak about curiosity, being curious as an interpreter and how that helps us on our journey in our profession. Today, Julie from France and I finish our conversation. We talked about the profession and how it's still unknown to many people.

00:01:20 Tim

We talk about mediation interpreter. What's that?

00:01:24 Tim

We'll learn more about the profession and how it's changing and developing in France.

00:01:30 Tim

And some of the ways that it's difficult to do our job.

00:01:35 Tim

We may not have all the answers.

00:01:37 Tim

But we're getting closer and closer.

00:01:41 Tim

So, let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:01:47 Tim

Since you've started sign language interpreting as a career over the years, what mistakes do you still remember that have influenced you as a working interpreter?

00:02:01 Julie

I am sure I've made lots of mistakes. It’s just that you don't want to remember them.

00:02:06 Julie

The most common mistake that I can make is that sometimes I have trouble to interrupt the hearing person when the Deaf person wants to speak and…

00:02:27 Julie

You know when the Deaf person raises their hands and everything in the room saw that hand rise, but the hearing person keeps speaking and you don't really know what to do about it. 

00:02:41 Julie

And sometimes I, umm, fear that it feeds the hearing privilege against the Deaf people.

00:02:57 Julie

And I don't really know how to…

00:02:59 Julie

Well, I try every time, every time I see a hand rising, I'm like, I have a… I'm interpreting the question. There is a question. The Deaf person wants to talk or can I speak up or I'm trying to say something, but the hearing person keeps talking and talking and instead of having found a way of letting the Deaf person, you know, take up action…

00:03:27 Julie

It's still very hard to stop the hearing person, and that's a-, I don't know if you call it a mistake, but at least for me, it feels like something I have to improve on so that the Deaf person is indeed, equal was their hearing speaker.

00:03:49 Julie

You see what I mean?

00:03:50 Tim

Yes, definitely. It's one of those social, cultural communication exchanges that differ from individual to individual.

00:04:00 Tim

As well as culture to culture, whether it's a business environment or not, all of those things have to be taken into account and that's where it becomes difficult, especially when somebody just will not stop talking.

00:04:15 Tim

And of course it happens the other way. Somebody will not stop signing.

00:04:19 Julie

Of course.

00:04:20 Tim

Yeah, and it depends on their personality. Yeah, that, that that is something I think we all struggle with. And being so experienced as the sign language interpreter, we still have things that we struggle with them that we're working on constantly. I think that's a good thing.

00:04:35 Tim

I wonder if Deaf interpreters have the same issue.

00:04:38 Julie

Oh, why don’t you ask them?

00:04:39 Tim

Exactly! [chuckling] Knowing their perspective, not only as a Deaf consumer but a Deaf interpreter. How they think it should be handled and how they practically handle it themselves would help us as well.

00:04:51 Tim

So, I think it's a good thing that we have a cooperation already. Speaking of which kind of connected to that, how are sign language interpreters looked upon in society in France, are you looked at as a social worker or as a professional?

00:05:15 Tim

What is that perspective?

00:05:17 Julie

It really depends, I think mostly people will still see us as school workers because we're working with people with disability. You know, they're called people with disability.

00:05:34 Julie

So consequently, people will think that we're social workers, so we still have very often that question or are you accompanying that person or are you the interpreter for that person, or is it your real job? Do you do that full time and every day?

00:05:56 Julie

We still have a lot of those questions and it's still…

00:06:01 Julie

It's really a mix of everything, like seeing this as a real job or a social worker volunteering and at the same time, sometimes we have the, “Oh, but you do exactly the same thing as a spoken language.” And so, “Yes, we are and we have the same degree.” [chuckles]

00:06:21 Julie

So, it's a, it's a little mix of everything. It really depends on the situation and who, who is attending, yeah.

00:06:30 Tim

Yeah.

00:06:30 Julie

I don't, I don't think there's a fixed tag on what we do. It's not very clear for everybody yet.

00:06:39 Tim

Yeah.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:06:43 Tim

So, circling back around to the Deaf community and the interpreting community, how has the relationship evolved between the Deaf community and the National Sign Language Interpreter Association or the interpreter community? How has that evolved over the years since, say, the 1970s?

00:07:05 Julie

It's been on and off, I think initially when the Deaf community wanted to have very professional interpreters separating them from their children doing it.

00:07:18 Julie

So…

00:07:20 Julie

First, the National Association was created, and they worked together, and I believe they went their, their own way at some point, like the, the Deaf community stayed together. They, interpreting community stayed together.

00:07:38 Julie

Also today, there we have a tendency to say that unfortunately, sign language interpreters today spend less and less time with the Deaf community.

00:07:52 Julie

There are new sign language interpreters coming into the profession as umm, a new career after doing something else. So, they're just discovering the language, discovering their history in the community, but they don't have ties into the Deaf community, so it can be a little harder.

00:08:09 Julie

But then at the same time…

00:08:16 Julie

It's funny because at the same time we can also see that the Deaf Association and the National Sign Language Interpreters and Translators Association have grown back into a new relationship together.

00:08:34 Julie

Maybe because…?

00:08:36 Julie

I'm interpreting here, but maybe, maybe because it comes from Deaf translators and Deaf interpreters being admitted as new members of the National Association. That gives us, like a new perspective and something different to reflect on.

00:08:53 Julie

And like ohh yeah, but we, we do, we, we knew but we do need the Deaf community to be with us.

00:09:01 Julie

So, yeah, I think it's, it's very moving. And the fact also that there is this new profession of Deaf interpreters, it has made us think also of our position as, as hearing interpreters and so we had to find the right spot or each person.

00:09:28 Julie

Early April, we recently had seminar organized by hearing and Deaf speakers about the, the professional relationship between Deaf and hearing people being sign language interpreters, interpreters, translators, or the new profession called mediation interpreter.

00:09:58 Julie

It's a new seminar, so we just started talking about it and something emerge from that, and you want to deepen the reflection in, in, in another seminar, next, maybe next year or maybe later this year, we'll see. But it's, it's something that both hearing and Deaf interpreters want to work on.

00:10:21 Julie

That's only in the interpreting community.

00:10:27 Julie

If I want to go back to the Deaf community in general and interpreters in general.

00:10:33 Julie

I believe...

00:10:36 Julie

I believe it's OK, but I don't know if everybody would say the same thing. [Tim: yeah]

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:10:43 Tim

If you've enjoyed this episode, if it's made you smile or had a thoughtful moment, why not share this with a colleague and friend? Give them that smile. Give them a thoughtful moment. Click on the links in the show notes. Thank you. Now let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:11:00 Tim

Can you explain a little bit what you meant by this new term of mediation interpreter and how is it different from interpreter?

00:11:10 Julie

So, it's a very new profession, very new. Some of them are, have been doing it for 30 years, but there's a new degree, a new diploma that has been created recently. It's the place of a Deaf person, professional who will be in between a Deaf person and an interpreter, a hearing interpreter.

00:11:35 Julie

And who will explain things a little differently, maybe adapt more to cultural differences or rephrase more clearly things.

00:11:48 Julie

But I think it would be even better if you ask that question to a Deaf mediator. Here in France, we call them intermediator and the definition is not very clear to everybody still, because they can do so many things at the same time. [Tim: Mm-hmm] Usually they are… They're a professional, an interpreter needs to work with. So, the information is completely and fully understood by the Deaf person, in a very complimentary way. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:12:35 Julie

Because sometimes an interpreter can do so much.

00:12:39 Julie

But a Deaf person will add that little identity, saying that we will never have as a hearing interpreter, yeah. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:12:54 Tim

Yeah, I'd like to discover more about this because some of what you're saying is the skills or the features that a mediation interpreter have are some of the skills or ways that we describe a Deaf interpreter in certain situations as far as being able to, let's say, mediate the language in a way that's clearer, more native. So, I'm curious as to how this will play out as a separate entity.

00:13:20 Julie

I think the that this profession emerged from seeing Deaf interpreters in the U.S., for example, [Tim: Mm-hmm] if I’m not mistaken.

00:13:28 Julie

And we've learned also that in the US, Deaf interpreters have many roles at the same time, they're doing the mediation, they're doing the interpretation, they're doing the adaptation, they're doing the translation as well, whereas in France…

00:13:49 Julie

It seems that we have one person for each setting, and we would, we would call a Deaf interpreter someone at a conference when for example, I would translate between English and French Sign language and the Deaf interpreter will take it from French Sign language to IS to international sign or to rephrase it in foreign sign language even. That could work. 

00:14:14 Julie

Whereas you would have a mediator Deaf interpreter in legal or medical settings, or even in settings when you have a Deaf person who's not French or a Deaf person who might lack the basic information of that setting and need more information about the usual interpretation. The usual interpreter is not able to give.

00:14:51 Tim

Yeah, yeah.

00:14:52 Julie

So, I'm pretty sure we can find names of people you could interview on that subject [Tim: yeah] who would be more clear about their own position.

00:15:05 Tim

Yeah, it's a nice way to separate the roles, make it clearer. Yeah, very interesting.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:15:16 Tim

So, because you are experienced in languages experienced in travelling, cultures, and of course sign language interpreting, what advice would you give to students of sign language interpreting or new interpreters?

00:15:32 Julie

Be curious. [chuckles] Stay curious to keep spending time with Deaf people as often as possible. I don't know. I think we, we never learn the language enough. There's always something new that you can learn, a new way of saying things, new – cultural differences are so interesting and important that I believe curiosity is our best friend. We should take it with us all the time, yeah.

00:16:07 Tim

Yeah, reflecting on your work with other sign language interpreters or even interpreters from other countries that you met with, what do you want interpreters to remember?

00:16:19 Tim

Remember to do or remember not to do.

00:16:23 Julie

That's a hard question. [both chuckle]

00:16:27 Julie

I don't know if I have another answer then you be curious. Be, be true. Be respectful of each other of each party. How, what people really want to tell each other. [Tim: hmm] I think we also need to be humble as well as…

00:16:47 Julie

Aware of, humble about, our position, but also aware of everything we still have to learn and improve. And yes, that we have a privileged place because we can be in those all those different settings and involved in all these different things.

00:17:06 Julie

I wouldn't say learn because maybe we don't learn from every setting. From everything we interpret, but we have a very privileged position in being able to be where we are every time we are, and hearing a little bit of everything, you know, discovering a little bit of everything.

00:17:30 Julie

I think that's, that's the intresting, interesting part of our job.

00:17:35 Tim

What would you tell interpreters to stop doing?

00:17:39 Julie

Maybe a lot of us have a tendency to think we're not “good enough” or doing a good enough job. Maybe lots of us have a tendency to only see the mistakes instead of seeing what we've done right or what we're already doing correctly. [Tim: Mm-hmm] I don't know if it's very typical of interpreters.

00:18:07 Julie

I think it's just, you know, human beings being that way. Yeah, maybe stop being too harsh on ourselves? [Tim: hmm]

00:18:16 Julie

And try to also see the positives. Don't put the negatives away because they are there and they're there to make us improve, but stop only just, you know, saying oh, I did this wrong, I did this wrong [Tim: yeah] and maybe focusing also on everything we did right. 

00:18:36 Tim

Yeah. Well, Julie, thank you so much for this time. Wonderful to see you and to talk to you after a few years of not seeing you. Thank you for sharing your life with us. And I hope to see you soon.

00:18:49 Julie

Well, thank you. Thank you for having me and I hope I was, uh, able to share some light on French sign language interpreting.

00:19:01 Tim

Hopefully we will see each other again soon. I don't know an efsli event or maybe we'll work together again.

00:19:08 Julie

Yeah, hopefully it would be fun. [Tim: yeah]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:19:16 Tim

Knowing more and more about how other sign language interpreters throughout the world work helps us understand our own. Their conditions, their environment, the political scene, the languages, and how their difficulties or their barriers to improving themselves or just getting through the day, how their experience mimics our own.

00:19:42 Tim

Julie gave us some wonderful things to think about today. She mentioned how it can be difficult to interrupt speakers during a conversation. Sometimes the speaker, whether they're signing or speaking, just needs to get through with an idea or they need to get to a point and they haven't quite found how to get there yet.

00:20:04 Tim

And the other person is trying to interrupt trying to add something. Or perhaps they thought of something that they wanted to say, and they just want to interrupt and add that because they believe it has some impact or some influence on the goal of that situation. 

00:20:20 Tim

It is sometimes difficult for us even though we understand how to politely interrupt someone in our own culture and language, it's sometimes difficult to do it while we're in the process of an interpretation.

00:20:37 Tim

But I think Julie summed it up the best way. The first thing we should do is ask our clients ask a Deaf interpreter how they think is the best way to handle it. As the clients that we're working with at that moment. If you anticipate that such things will happen ask them beforehand. How would you like me to handle that?

00:21:02 Tim

Learning more about the mediation interpreter that they have used in France makes me consider whether or not we should move away from the generalist sign language interpreter to a more specialized sign language interpreter, not just a hearing interpreter, not just a Deaf interpreter, but rather I'm an interpreter for this in this situation. Again, this is another topic to talk with our colleagues, the Deaf interpreters.

00:21:35 Tim

Should the hearing interpreters also be trained in these specialized roles or needs for our clients? Perhaps this is a discussion for another episode.

00:21:46 Tim

The very last thing that we should take from this last part of her interview, Julie made us remember that perhaps the best thing for our profession, best way for us to improve, grow and develop as a professional sign language interpreter is to be curious.

00:22:07 Tim

Think about what's happening around us. Ask questions about it. Hold your judgement. Hold your opinion or your reaction long enough to answer your curiosity. Ask more questions about it. Learn more by asking more. Listening more. Seeing more, that's the motivation for our growth.

00:22:33 Tim

So, until next time, keep calm. Keep your interpreting, curious. I'll see you next week. Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:23:17]