IW 159: Interview Julie Kléne Part 3: Well, She Was Just 17 and She Knows What She Means

Ethics, schmethics! Who needs them? They're just going to change.

Julie Kléne, LSF interpreter from France, continues with her story. We discuss ethics in sign language interpreting and how they change according to the situation, our character, and how learning a language expands after experiencing immersion in native language-use settings.

Let us know what you think.

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Transcript

IW 159: Interview Julie Kléne Part 3: Well, She Was Just 17 and She Knows What She Means

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS]

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:34 Tim

And now the quote of the day by French poet Charles Baudelaire.

00:00:40 Tim

"I set out to discover the why of it and to transform my pleasure into knowledge."

00:00:49 Tim

Today, we continue the interview with Julie from France, a French sign language interpreter influenced by her trip to the USA. This week we talked about how our views change with our experience in reality.

00:01:05 Tim

We discussed the practicalities of making decisions in different situations according to ethics and how it changes within those situations and a little bit about our own character. How does that all come together. Well…

00:01:23 Tim

Let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:01:28 Tim

What memories or impressions do you have from your time as an exchange student in the US?

00:01:35 Julie

Well, I remember just being a girl of 17-year-old and living in Montana, which was so far from the picture that I had of America.

00:01:51 Julie

And, and I also realized that had I not gone to the States for that foreign exchange year, I might have missed some sign language. [Tim: Mm-hmm] It's because, it's because I was there and because Deaf students were put in front of my eyes and because I had that opportunity to learn ASL…

00:02:20 Julie

…that I was able to pursue something into some language in France and I know that if I hadn't been there, I wouldn't be here or who I am today. That's for sure, yeah.

00:02:39 Tim

Yeah. What picture did you have of America and how did it compare to Montana? [Julie chuckles]

00:02:47 Julie

I think I had the completely fake image of America that everybody has watching television when you're 17 years old. [Tim chuckles]

00:03:02 Julie

And… It was everything and completely different at the same time.

00:03:08 Julie

I was in. I lived in Montana, which is, I believe, a state that is 3 times as big as France with just one million people living in it when we are 16 million people in France, so it was very…

00:03:28 Julie

It's called the Big Sky State and, and it doesn't come from nowhere. [Tim chuckles]

00:03:34 Julie

I like. I like telling everybody that I lived in Montana in the very city of the movie And the River Runs Through It. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:03:43 Julie

And they're like…

00:03:44 Julie

“Oh, that place is wonderful.” And like, yes, of course it is beautiful. But it's also very empty. [both chuckle]

00:03:56 Julie

And I really, I didn't, I didn't really enjoy that part when I was 17, but it is something that I go back to with a lot of pleasure right now. When I go back and visit my host family because we're still in touch today. And, and this is why I love Montana today because of the emptiness, because of the mountains and because of the grandeur that you have over there.

00:04:25 Julie

But that don't ask that to me, to the 17-year-old me. She wouldn't agree with you on that.

00:04:35 Tim

Yeah, yeah, we definitely change our perspective on things that happen in our lives as we grow older. That's true.

00:04:42 Julie

Yeah.

00:04:43 Tim

Well, I've never been to Montana, so I'm a little jealous. I haven't seen the emptiness of Montana. I've seen it in Oklahoma and Kansas and Colorado and well, anywhere else, but not there. Are you in touch with any of the Deaf from Montana that you first encountered?

00:05:04 Julie

Well, not the Deaf people, and I'm still in touch with the sign language teacher. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:05:11 Julie

And she's, she's become a very good friend of mine. So, we're still in touch, but she's the only one with my apart from my host family.

00:05:20 Julie

I didn't keep a steady relationship with people over there, yeah.

00:05:26 Tim

Yeah, it changes after you're 17. Yeah. [Julie: yeah]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:05:33 Tim

Let's talk a little deeper about the profession and, and what we do as sign language interpreters. For you, what would be an ideal interpretation-situation like the environment or the job? What is the ideal job for you as far as the feeling after it's over?

00:05:53 Julie

I would say…

00:05:55 Julie

If I feel like both parties have completely understood each other, [Tim: Mm-hmm] have been able to communicate without obstacles, if I have been able to convey everybody's meaning, if everybody was aware that I was there, so that I could translate everything smoothly without having to ask somebody to speak slower or to speak more clearly, and at the same time that they would, they would have forgotten as well about me being there. I don't know if it, if I makes sense.

00:06:42 Julie

Like both of them, like both parties, would know that there is an interpreter. They are aware of the interpreter being there and our needs to…

00:06:55 Julie

So that we can convey the meanings clearly, but at the same time, “OK, the interpreter is my voice, or the interpreter is my hea-, my ear and everybody communicates smoothly.” I think this is what I really want when, when I'm on the job assignment. Yeah.

00:07:16 Tim

What is your method or your philosophy, your worldview, when it comes to decision making during an interpreting job, is it more focused on ethics or consequences or both? Or what is that philosophy?

00:07:36 Julie

I think I’m always trying to, to stay true to ethics at the same time, I don't want to stick in a box.

00:07:49 Julie

I want to feel that I can rely on ethics to help me make the right decision but also realize that sometimes I can get a little bit outside of, outside of it. Because it's going to be easier and smoother for everybody to communicate, if I'm not strict into a very… into something that's... Yeah, too strict.

00:08:23 Julie

So, it really depends on the situation, I guess.

00:08:27 Julie

There are moments you cannot get out-of-the-box, and you have to be very strict in, in spite of knowing that you would prefer to do something differently, but I don't know. For example, in a, in legal settings, it's very hard to stray from what is expected from you.

00:08:49 Julie

Although it's also a situation when you would like to just stray a little because you would like to be able to tell everybody, “Well, this is not working correctly”, but you would like to see it in a more comfortable manner because when, when you do say it's not working correctly, people are automatically thinking that maybe you're not doing your job correctly.

00:09:17 Julie

Whereas it's not that I'm not doing my job correctly, it's just that I can't do it correctly in this conditions, so I don't even explain it in correctly, but…

00:09:29 Julie

So yeah, some settings are really hard to, to make you freer of your movements.

00:09:38 Julie

If I may say, I don't know.

00:09:40 Tim

Yeah, that makes sense, yeah. Because you have worked with different languages, not just French and French Sign language. Do you see those types of restrictions, you might say or boundaries that we are put in sometimes… Do you see differences when it comes to working in different languages, say English or Spanish and knowing that the cultural differences may be affecting the situation? D’you see differences there or how to navigate it is different?

00:10:10 Julie

I don't really know because…

00:10:13 Julie

I think when I work with English or Spanish into French language into and from, umm, the settings are so different from what I do between French and French and language that I cannot really compare.

00:10:32 Julie

With English it's always directly something that's really hard. Like it's always, it's, it's always been a conference straight away. [Tim: hmm] It's always been doing something with very high stakes. And it’s, with English I've never been in a situation or, very rarely, in a situation on a 1 to 1.

00:11:00 Julie

So, in Spanish it's the same thing. Like the first time I was asked to translate with Spanish it was a conference. So, your like, “Ohh. OK” So, there's a very strict setting. And you're trying at some point, sometimes you're trying to say, “Well, can I…(You know) can you speak slower?” But I still do the same things I would do between French and French sign language, [Tim: hmm] so I don't really feel any difference there.

00:11:33 Julie

Ohh, despite the fact that you're thrown into something that you feel, you feel like you are a trainee. [Tim: slightly chuckles] You feel like you're, you're still learning that, you know, I'm not supposed to go there right away. I'm supposed to learn all the things before I get there. But…

00:11:54 Julie

The situation in the, yeah, the situation is like that. That when you work with other spoken languages, it's straight away, something a little harder I think.

00:12:08 Tim

I know I found it interesting to work conferences where I am using the spoken language interpreters going from say German to English and so I'm listening to the English interpreter or interpretation going into a signed language or IS, International Sign, and the main restriction is that I can't interrupt. I can't say. Wait. What was that? Because they can't stop. They can't stop the speaker, and they are interpreting it already. They can't feed me in other words. There's no two-way communication. Have you worked in situations where you are able to do that?

00:12:47 Julie

No, I don't think so. I was in the same situation as you were with them. Yeah, where I was fed from a spoken language interpreter.

00:12:59 Julie

And I think the one conference I did with Spanish, we were in the same room though with the two, with the two, umm, speakers. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:13:12 Julie

One hearing, one Deaf.

00:13:14 Julie

And that's why we were in the same room. [Tim: hmm] So, we would see each other and actually could manage this a little bit more easily because we would see each other and we could tell the speaker to go slower or, or stop. When you're not in the same room or when you depend on somebody else, it's very different.

00:13:35 Tim

Yeah, that's where obviously we have a team who's also listening to that same interpretation coming in and hopefully, they can, can feed us and support us.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

[00:13:47] Tim

Supporting one another is essential. And you know where I'm going with this. If you enjoy these episodes, do me a favor. A little support from you will go a long way to bring more ideas, more opinions, more discussion, more history and smiles from around the world. Check out the link for Buy Me A Coffee. Thank you. Now let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:14:11 Tim

Let's go to... word association. I will say a word or a phrase, or – yes, probably just a word or a phrase, and then you give me a word or phrase, a story, whatever first comes to your mind.

00:14:26 Julie

Hmm. [chuckling] OK let's try.

00:14:30 Tim

Alright, the first thing is easy.

00:14:33 Tim

Comfort food.

00:14:36 Julie

Chocolate.

00:14:37 Tim

Chocolate. Any particular type? Dark or milk?

00:14:41 Julie

No, I love chocolate in general. Anything with chocolate is fine. You can bring anything with chocolates for snacks, and I'll be the happiest of people on Earth. Yeah.

00:14:54 Tim

So, what did you think of chocolate in the US?

00:15:04 Julie

[Chuckling] Ummm… You have to find the one that's more…

00:15:12 Julie

“Tasty” than the others, [chuckling] but yeah, you can find, you can find interesting things.

00:15:21 Tim

Such a nice, nice answer. [both chuckle slightly] OK, next.

00:15:29 Tim

Exciting.

00:15:31 Julie

I’d say every time I learn something new, umm, job related or not.

00:15:40 Julie

Yeah, every time I learn something new, yeah.

00:15:44 Tim

OK.

00:15:45 Tim

Next.

00:15:47 Tim

Community.

00:15:50 Julie

Together. Yeah, yeah. Sharing a moment together, being together.

00:15:54 Tim

Sharing a moment together. So, it doesn't necessarily have to be someone that you're with regularly.

00:16:01 Julie

It could.

00:16:04 Julie

But I believe if you share a special moment, for just the moment, that moment can become special, or the moment is already special when you share it and you have that shared memory it might make you a small community maybe, but still.

00:16:28 Tim

OK, next.

00:16:30 Tim

Language.

00:16:32 Julie

I'm curious about languages.

00:16:36 Julie

And I feel languages give you an opportunity to discover someone's culture and someone's way of saying things.

00:16:50 Julie

So, you know, I, I find languages very interesting to learn and discover.

00:17:00 Tim

Did you find what you had learned in school English or Spanish? Did you find it completely different than what you expected when you were faced with native speakers?

00:17:13 Julie

Some things, yes.

00:17:16 Julie

Particularly in Spanish, for example, there are things that teachers use to try and explain to us at school that I would never understand or get right.

00:17:30 Julie

That after a while speaking with native speakers was like, “Ohh that's what they meant.”

00:17:37 Julie

But I myself cannot explain it to somebody else. I just feel it. Like I, I understand how it works because I've heard so many people doing it and so I do the same.

00:17:51 Julie

It's worse for the accents in Spanish where you write them and how you pronounce them, and in English it would be with, present perfect tenses. [Tim: hmm] With in terms, when I yeah, I wouldn't understand it when the teachers would explain it.

00:18:12 Julie

And I understand it when people use it, I think I know how to use it, but I'm completely unable to explain how and when you're supposed to use present perfect in English. [chuckles]

00:18:26 Tim

Exactly. Yeah, it's even hard for native speakers to explain that. Definitely. It just feels right.

00:18:33 Julie

Yeah, exactly.

00:18:35 Tim

Yeah. OK, let's see. Next pet peeve.

00:18:40 Julie

Hmm.

00:18:43 Julie

If we speak about our job, there's something that really bugs me.

00:18:51 Julie

And I think it bugs everyone in the profession.

00:18:54 Julie

Is how to make people understand that we need preparation.

00:19:02 Julie

And when I say preparation, it means, you know, previous texts and PowerPoints and vocabulary and a little bit of explanation on the techniques and…

00:19:14 Julie

And every time I've tried rephrasing my asking, I never get the things that I need. People don't understand why we need it. It's really something that keeps bugging me.

00:19:31 Julie

Do you do you have a... Do you have a special techniques to ask for preparation?

00:19:36 Tim

I do. I do. It doesn't always work of course.

00:19:39 Tim

I changed how I, say, send an e-mail. I use bullet points, or I use numbers and I refer to the numbers, asking specifically, I need PowerPoint presentations of all the presenters, or I need the names of these speakers and what languages they are using.

00:20:00 Tim

So, like you said, I get more detailed but I put it in a bullet pointed list so preparation materials needed colon and then a list.

00:20:11 Tim

And it works most of the time. They might acknowledge it at least.

00:20:17 Tim

I tried to make the materials request, or the preparation request a separate e-mail, then all the other correspondence between you know what time and all that stuff. [Julie: hmm]

00:20:29 Tim

I think this is something we all struggle with. And the struggle is getting them to respond to it.

00:20:37 Julie

Yeah.

00:20:38 Tim

So yeah, I think it's something probably universal and, and we will always have to deal with it.

00:20:44 Julie

Yeah.

00:20:46 Tim

OK, next heartbreaking.

00:20:50 Julie

There may be plenty of examples.

00:20:55 Julie

Maybe those moments when I see people being sad, just people being sad is making me sad, but I don't know if it's heartbreaking.

00:21:07 Tim

OK, next would be… character.

00:21:14 Julie

[---]. I'm thinking about the way we have to be different characters when we translate and when, when we're interpreting.

00:21:25 Julie

And, and how some characters are easier to put on than others.

00:21:37 Julie

And umm, it's interesting how we are able to do that every time.

00:21:46 Tim

So, describe to us one general character. You might say that is typical in your area of interpreting.

00:21:56 Julie

What is typical? [Tim chucking]

00:21:59 Julie

One character I'm less comfortable with is myself, actually. We're so used to speaking for somebody else or signing for somebody else that it's harder for me to speak for myself.

00:22:19 Julie

So, I'm very happy to be only speaking with you and not an audience because I feel very self-conscious when in front of other people. So…

00:22:32 Julie

Yeah, I'd rather choose that one. Hmm. And the character…

00:22:37 Julie

…the character that is more difficult to be with is myself. [both chuckling]

00:22:43 Tim

Yeah. Yeah. Do you think it's always been that way or only since you've become a sign language interpreter?

00:22:50 Julie

We think it's always been that way and that's why it's very easy to be a sign language interpreter because it's not an easy thing and I still can be in front of an audience interpreting something.

00:23:08 Julie

But people are not seeing me, they're seeing the speaker. So…

00:23:14 Tim

OK.

00:23:15 Tim

Next respect.

00:23:18 Julie

Basics.

00:23:19 Tim

Ah, basics.

00:23:21 Julie

Yeah, I would like everybody to respect each other all the time and in every situation, in every differences that we represent, just yeah, respect is basics for me.

00:23:39 Tim

And last.

00:23:41 Tim

Interpreting.

00:23:43 Julie

Enabling people to understand each other.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:23:53 Tim

And we all have to give some respect to Julie for coming onto the podcast after telling us that she's not comfortable in her own character. I don't think that's her way of saying she's not self confident. I think it's more of a point about many sign language interpreters…

00:24:12 Tim

…who enjoy interpreting because it's a way to come out of their own shell, to speak where other people are speaking, not comfortable giving their own opinion or their own advice or speaking for themselves, but rather interpreting as she said, “We are interpreting what others say.”

00:24:31 Tim

It's not us. And I can see the parallels between that and dancers. The dancers enjoy dancing because they're there, showing and feeling the movements, the music, rather than being themselves, as it were, on stage.

00:24:53 Tim

I've met many dancers who are much more clumsy in real life compared to what they show in their performance. They're being creative, they're feeling the energy that it gives them, and as interpreters we can feel that too. Sometimes in a situation we are not comfortable.

00:25:13 Tim

But being able to have that moment where we can have our skills shine without having to come up with the content ourselves.

00:25:23 Tim

That's how I perceive what Julie has said about character. For me, her opinions about ethics, practical decision making in the moment. It's a view that I would love to discuss more when we're talking about two different cultures or a different culture altogether, therefore their ethics or perhaps their norms is different in that location.

00:25:44 Tim

Therefore, the way we make our decision is not only based on our principles, but it's also based on what is morally or ethically acceptable in that particular situation with those particular people.

00:26:01 Tim

It's a practical way of looking at ethics. Two other points that struck me was sort of obvious, but it also touches me in a way that makes me think deeper about language use. When we learn the language, it isn't always in the immersive native language use.

00:26:23 Tim

It's usually in a classroom or a structured environment. When people are actually teaching you thinking about how to teach the language rather than just using the language.

00:26:35 Tim

And as she said, there are things we just can't grasp in that structured environment. It doesn't switch on that understanding until we've actually used it. This applies to sign language interpreting. We understand how to use the signed languages in a different way, in a more fluent or more economical way and it makes us feel just good.

00:27:04 Tim

So, we have one more week to go with Julie. Until then, keep calm. Keep transforming the pleasure of interpreting into the knowledge of interpreting. I'll see you next week. Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:27:54]