IW 157: Interview Julie Klène Part 1: Exchanging History - A Circular Interpreting Journey

They teach ASL in High School?! Well, of course.

From foreign exchange student in the U.S. to a sign language interpreter in France, our guest today, Julie Kléne, shares her journey and motivations to becoming an LSF/French interpreter. We learn about the working conditions of interpreters in France and some of the history of the Deaf and interpreting communities there.

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Transcript

IW 157: Interview Julie Klène Part 1: Exchanging History - A Circular Interpreting Journey

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS]

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:35 Tim

And now the quote of the day by author C.S. Lewis.

00:00:41 Tim

“Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another. What?! You too? I thought I was the only one.”

00:00:50 Tim

There are times when we are excited to find out the connections that we have with others, to find out that it's not just us.

00:01:00 Tim

In today's episode, we learn the journey of one interpreter where she's from, where she went, and how she came full circle, you might say, to being a sign language interpreter. And the quote reminds us that not only does the Deaf community live within your community, but the community is widespread and has connections across borders, across oceans, and across languages.

00:01:29 Tim

And I dare say that also applies to us, sign language interpreters as a community. We have so much in common that we “get it”. We are not the only ones.

00:01:42 Tim

So today, let's listen to the next interpreter, from France. Let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION  MUSIC]

00:01:53 Tim

Our guest today is Julie Kléne from France. She is a French sign language interpreter, of course, and some would say a world traveler.

00:02:03 Tim

She's lived in a few different places around the world, but now she lives in the South of France, near Marseille. Today we'll learn a little bit about her and delve deeper into the field of sign language interpreting in France. So Julie, welcome to the program.

00:02:22 Julie

Hi, Tim. Thank you for having me.

00:02:25 Tim

Uh, it's wonderful to see you. We, I know we have worked together one or two times in a team of interpreters and it was a wonderful fun time then and I'm sure it will be now as well.

00:02:37 Tim

So, I've never gotten to know how you became a sign language interpreter.

00:02:41 Tim

And why?

00:02:43 Julie

It's so funny and pretty long story usually.

00:02:49 Julie

I ended up being a sign language interpreter out of nowhere.

00:02:54 Julie

I first went to live in the United States when I was 17 years old as a foreign exchange student.

00:03:05 Julie

I did a senior year in high school in Big Sky High School in Missoula, Montana, for a year.

00:03:14 Julie

And during that year, I realized in high school there Deaf and hearing students were mixed together. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:03:25 Julie

In that very, that very year, the teachers decided that the senior students had to train to enter the university and to in order to do that training, they wanted everybody to learn something during a year and do like a small short thesis at the end of the year and a short situation and presentation.

00:03:53 Julie

I didn't really know what to do, but then I realized that I was always attracted to sign language and here is American Sign Language which I can learn on the spot. So, that's what I did for a year [Tim: Mm-hmm] and learned everything. I took outside classes and then I learned how it worked inside the high school.

00:04:17 Julie

And they learned about Deaf culture, Deaf history, Laurent Clerc bringing, bringing French sign language in, in America and helping out at Gallaudet to open Deaf schools over there and blah blah blah. And then when after that year in high school in the States, I went back to France.

00:04:37 Julie

I still didn't know what I wanted to do, Uh and learn at the university. So, I just registered in a random class and one day walking in the corridors of the university, I saw that they had a third year degree that you could enter in French Sign Language.

00:04:57 Julie

It was like, oh, this is my “sign”. And this is maybe something I should pursue. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:05:06 Julie

I first followed a two- a two-year degree in linguistics, general linguistics, and then I could enter that third-year diploma.

00:05:17 Julie

So being the first year that year diploma, I learned French Sign language for a year.

00:05:26 Julie

And then I learned all about in French, in France, sorry, regarding the lack of sign language interpreters… umm

00:05:39 Julie

…the difficulties that people had trusting sign language interpreters because of the history of them being their kids or their family or their friends and the profession was recently getting into something more professional. So, I learned everything that year at the university.

00:06:02 Julie

And after I did that year, I, I…

00:06:05 Julie

I thought well, maybe I can be a sign language interpreter.

00:06:08 Julie

In the path to be… well applied for the sign language interpreting schools, didn't have the right the correct level of sign language required to enter the sign language university. So, they told me very nicely to go and spend time with, more time, with Deaf people.

00:06:34 Julie

That's what I did for two years and after spending two years with Deaf people working in associations and, you know, basically just learning, how to speak with Deaf people, I entered the sign language interpreting school and graduated in 2005.

00:06:54 Julie

But don't tell anyone, it's been 20 years that I've been working already. [both chuckling]

00:07:00 Julie

It went by way too fast.

00:07:01 Tim

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I understand that. I mean, a little bit anyway. [“coughs”]

00:07:08 Tim

Interesting. So, we have a French person coming to the US, learning some ASL and then going back to France. So, was it the American Deaf community that influenced your interest in it, or did you have an interest in the Deaf community before going to the US?

00:07:29 Julie

I think I was already a little interested in sign language as I was interested in foreign languages in general.

00:07:43 Julie

I really enjoyed speaking English. I really enjoyed speaking Spanish and learning them at school. [Tim: Mm-hmm] And I saw sometimes sign language on television. And I was like, “Oh, this is interesting”, but I never, you know, dove into it or wondered more about that.

00:08:01 Julie

It's just that when I was in high school in the States, Deaf students were right there in front of my eyes and I was like, “Oh, OK, this is a good way to learn sign language because people are right there”.

00:08:15 Julie

So, that's why I took the opportunity during that year and when I came back to France and still didn't know what to do with myself at the university, I had no clue of what kind of job I could…

00:08:31 Julie

…to go to I was like, “Yeah, but I know American Sign Language now, so maybe I can do something” and everything fell into place with the, uh, the options that they could have at the university. Yeah. [Tim: hmm]

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:08:46 Tim

Sometimes things just fall into place, like now! You're listening to this podcast, looking for more information, listening to other interpreters. Why not join the IW Community? Just click on the links in the show notes and there you'll meet all of us, sign language interpreters from around the world. See you soon. Now let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:09:07 Tim

When you first started learning French Sign Language, was it influenced, or did you have ASL habits that you had to get rid of? Or was there any influence at all?

00:09:18 Julie

I think there was, but I only had taken one year of ASL classes, so I had the very basics. I remember it was very, very hard for me to change the way we count because we don't count the same way in ASL and LSF.

00:09:39 Julie

So, I was like, “Oh, but why do we count on both hands in LSF when ASL, you count on one hand, it's like this is much more practical to count on one hand”, [Tim: chuckles] for example. But otherwise, everything went smoothly. And today, when I say that, I first learned ASL, people asked me for signs in ASL which I completely forgot.

00:10:01 Julie

LSF took over really fast [Tim: yeah] in comparison. I mean it's one year of ASL and 23 years of A-, of LSF.

00:10:11 Julie

So, you know.

00:10:12 Julie

One is stronger than the other, obviously.

00:10:15 Tim

Yeah.

00:10:16 Tim

Yeah, this is a point I've always wondered about because at university within the Deaf community as well, I learned all about how French influences into American Sign Language and learned since then about indigenous populations having their own sign language and sign languages that had immigrated into the US and had influenced and shaped ASL as well, but…

00:10:41 Tim

LSF being a very strong influence, it's part of the history for the US.

00:10:46 Tim

What is that perspective from France and I know yours is probably a little different because of your unique journey between the two, but overall, does the Deaf community in France, or rather the interpreting community, think about how it has influenced ASL?

00:11:06 Julie

I think we know about it because of the Deaf history that we learn when we learn LSF. So its… people don't usually stay on it and I don't have to say it.

00:11:24 Julie

It's just that…

00:11:25 Julie

We know it happened.

00:11:27 Julie

But what you… what the Deaf community and the interpreter community focus on is the fact that in France, I don't know if everybody knows, but in France, LSF was forbidden in school between 1880 in 1991, [Tim: hmm] because of the Milan Congress in 1880. [Tim: Mm-hmm] And, and so in the 1970s, we have what is called a The Deaf Awakening.

00:12:00 Julie

That's when American Deaf people and, and sign language interpreters from America came to France and made Deaf people in France realize that what they had in their hands was a treasure and that they had to take care of it.

00:12:21 Julie

So, everybody here think about ASL and Americans more in, in a way of, of friendship renewed. Maybe because of the history and because of Clerc being the first teacher and, and, and also having been brought to America.

00:12:44 Julie

But then America came back to France and helped the French Deaf people to revive LSF. So, I think people here focus more on that part than on the fact that LSF had a huge influence in the first place.

00:13:05 Tim

So, this was a revitalization of, of pride in, in the language. [Julie: Mm-hmm]

00:13:11 Tim

What was the atmosphere of sign language interpreting at that time? How did it look compared to now?

00:13:17 Julie

If I remember correctly, my history and my Deaf history classes, I think in the 1970s, 75 we had very few. Well, we had no professional sign language interpreters.

00:13:34 Julie

The sign language interpreters were officiating as such, but really were CODAs, were children of Deaf adults or family or friends usually at the time.

00:13:49 Julie

And but that's also when everybody, Deaf and hearing people, agreed on the fact that they needed someone, uh, more professional.

00:14:02 Julie

That, you know, Deaf people didn't want to use their kids as interpreters anymore. They needed to have more privacy they needed the kids to be kids. So, it's also, I checked for the podcast. I checked the creation of the national Sign Language Interpreter Association.

00:14:25 Julie

And realized it was created in 1978, [Tim: hmm] and it coincides with the fact that people were already reflecting on giving a more professional turn to the sign language interpreting, um, profession.

00:14:43 Julie

Yeah.

00:14:44 Tim

Well, this is information I did not know.

00:14:47 Tim

So many questions now that I have and wondering where to go next. It's interesting because there were also changes here in the 1990s that of course, politically here in the Czech Republic, but also at that time people from the US had come here and helped revitalize things and…

00:15:06 Tim

So, what does it feel like now? As far as the working conditions of sign language interpreters, what does it feel like now?

00:15:15 Julie

Hmm. It's evolved a lot. When I made my studies to become a sign language interpreters, there were two universities that you could study at. Today, there are five.

00:15:31 Julie

We had a census made two years ago by the National Association of Sign Language Interpreters, which recorded 615 sign language interpreters currently working right now. But... it’s not enough, obviously.

00:15:53 Julie

What else can I tell you?

00:15:56 Tim

How does that compare to the population of the Deaf community or the LSF users?

00:16:01 Julie

The thing is in France we don't have very clear numbers of sign language users because in France…

00:16:10 Julie

…when they ask about you know, they don't want to ask very straightforward questions, so that they're not accused of discrimination. So sometimes... So, for the Deaf and hard of hearing, everybody's put in the same category.

00:16:24 Julie

So, they usually talk about 6,000,000 Deafs and hard of hearing people. But out of those 6 million people, we think maybe it’s 300,000 are using sign language.

00:16:44 Julie

So, that would be, if we say there are 300,000 people use - Deaf people using sign language and we are 615 sign language interpreters. I calculated it is one for 488.

00:17:03 Julie

That's not a lot. [both chuckle] There's a very high demand.

00:17:09 Tim

Hmm.

00:17:09 Julie

We're, we're not enough, obviously, yeah.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:17:14 Tim

I absolutely love making this podcast, but I'm not enough. It's from sponsorship like you. That's right, donations to help me keep it going every week. So, click on the links in the show notes. Buy me a coffee. Thank you. Now let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:17:30 Tim

So, are you hired individually or interpreters working for an agency or an organization? How does it work as far as getting the jobs as interpreters.

00:17:43 Julie

Umm, it really depends on where you are in France, the territory is very diverse. You have many options. You can be employed in an agency, or what we call interpreting services here, you can, you can be freelance, so you can do half and half.

00:18:04 Julie

You can do an 80-20, it really depends. You can be freelancer or an employee depending on, on what you feel more comfortable with or what the uh, positions are in the city you are in. Yeah.

00:18:20 Tim

I guess the question is then, how are you paid? Are you paid through a government fund or through individuals or organizations or the Deaf people themselves?

00:18:31 Julie

Everything. [chuckles] [Tim: Uh-huh] Everything can be. It really depends on the situation like, umm…

00:18:39 Julie

So, the Deaf pers-, the Deaf people are considered people with the disability, by the society, even if some of them don't want to be called people in the situation of disability. But that's how they are. And so, because of that, they can apply to a subvention by the state.

00:19:06 Julie

And that subvention allows them to pay for her something like 30 hours of interpreter- of interpreting per month. I would say more in private settings. [Tim: hmm] So, that would be the doctor appointment, or maybe the teacher and parents reunion at schools.

00:19:30 Julie

Little, little things like that. Whereas when they are employed in a company in France, there's a policy stating that a company which hires more than 50 people have to also employ 6% of people with disabilities. And if they don't employ 6% of people with disabilities, they pay a tax. Let’s call it a tax, they pay a tax to a special organization.

00:20:07 Julie

So, the organization shares the taxes to everybody in a situation of disability so that they can work as well or in as good conditions as a hearing person. So, for example, I'm Deaf and I work in a firm.

00:20:24 Julie

And I need an interpreter for the weekly reunion, and so the type of organization that collects the fee will give money to the firm depending on how many people with disabilities are in the firm. So, it's very proportional and that money will go to the disable mission that will share it between all the employees so that we can have a sign language interpreter or video relay services or a special chair, or a special computer and everything like that.

00:21:08 Julie

So, when I, as a sign language interpreter, work in that kind of settings, the Deaf person doesn't pay from their pockets. It's the firm. But it's not the budget from the company. It's the budget coming from that organization.

00:21:21 Tim

Yeah. That tax that they've collected, OK.

00:21:23 Julie

Mm-hmm.

00:21:24 Tim

Interesting, but that's different in, in each territory?

00:21:30 Julie

Yeah, the reparation is very different between each territory. You know, I think it also depends on the local legislation and how the mayor's office, and how the region is managing all that money and budget, yeah.

00:21:54 Tim

Is it safe to say that you're able to work and make a living as a sign language interpreter?

00:21:59 Julie

Yes, yes we are.

00:22:01 Julie

The census that we made at the National Association of Sign Language Interpreters two years ago the information about us working full time is that 60% of the respondents to the census are working full time.

00:22:18 Tim

Wow, 60%, that's good.

00:22:20 Julie

So, it means that the other 40 work part time or arrange their schedule according to their own personal needs and professional needs, yeah.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:22:37 Tim

So, do you have only one national organization of sign language interpreters then?

00:22:43 Julie

Yes, just one.

00:22:44 Tim

Is it the same one that was founded in ‘78?

00:22:47 Julie

Yes.

00:22:48 Julie

It's the same one although the, the name has changed over the years, and it recently changed again. It is now the National Association, the French Association of Sign Language interpreters and Sign Language Translators, because very recently Deaf people now have a master's degree, I think, in translation that they can have. So, they can enter… They can also become members of our association. It's not only uh, sign language interpreters, but also translators.

00:23:29 Julie

Yeah. [Tim: OK] So, we changed the name to add our translator colleagues.

00:23:35 Tim

Yeah. So, are they considered Deaf sign language interpreters as well, or just Deaf sign language translators? Or is it interchangeable for you?

00:23:46 Julie

No, it's not interchangeable, although some of them do both. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:23:51 Julie

And some of them do just one. So, we have Deaf interpreters and Deaf translators. But to be a Deaf interpreter, they are trying to add more training and more validation from peers and from higher organizations like WFD, or WASLI, or other degrees to make sure that they can also be Deaf interpreters. Yeah.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:24:25 Tim

You know, in every interview I talked to different sign language interpreters from around the world, and we hear of their journey, their motivation to become a sign language interpreter, and we learn something new every time this time. This time Julie told us an interesting connection between the U.S. and France.

00:24:50 Tim

I did know, and most of us do know, about how French Sign language influenced the development of American Sign Language.

00:24:55 Tim

But I never knew that U.S. community came to France to help them have their reawakening to have their pride brought back from one part of the world community to France. For me, it shows that having those connections having that understanding and learning about one another, sharing the goals and strengthening and supporting each other is what it's all about.

00:25:24 Tim

It helps us all develop and come from where we are to lifting each other up higher and higher. It's interesting to see the working conditions in France and how it differs from other countries and yet it has similarities as well. Knowing that there is a high demand for sign language interpreters everywhere it keeps us on our toes, which means we have to stay motivated. We have to keep developing our skills to support one another, to bring about better service in our interpretations and in our community.

00:26:00 Tim

The very last point that she gave us was about how now we have Deaf translators and interpreters within the National Sign Language Interpreting Association. They support one another. They changed their name to acknowledge and make it possible to include everyone.

00:26:19 Tim

Both communities overlapping and connecting and supporting one another…. So, while Julie learned of her journey in the U.S. using American Sign Language, it motivated her when she returned and taught her the heritage that she was passing on to the next generation of sign language interpreters.

00:26:38 Tim

So, I look forward to next week or the next part of this interview with Julie from France. Stay tuned. Until then, keep calm. Keep exchanging your interpreting stories. I'll see you next week. Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:27:29]