IW 147: Interview Paul Michaels Part 1: The Thai-s that Bind the Nomadic Interpreter

"That's so nice!" "No, I said niece." "OH! That's how it all starts!"

We visit with Dr Paul Michaels from the UK. His journey is a fun one. We learn what motivated him to start this interpreting journey. In the next episodes more of his interpreting views and his research about "male" interpreters.

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Transcript

IW 147: Interview Paul Michaels Part 1: The Thai-s that Bind the Nomadic Interpreter

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS]

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:34 Tim

And now the quotes of the day, the first one by Theodore Roosevelt, U.S. President from 1901 to 1909.

00:00:44 Tim

“Each time we face our fear, we gain strength, courage, and confidence in the doing.”

00:00:52 Tim

And the second by Carrie Fisher, American actress known for her role in Star Wars.

00:01:00 Tim

“Stay afraid but do it anyway. What's important is the action. You don't have to wait to be confident. Just do it. And eventually the confidence will follow.”

00:01:12 Tim

Both of these quotes tell us more about ourselves.

00:01:16 Tim

How we assume, how we worry about the future rather than seeing the future for ourselves. When we worry about things we don't know, it costs us time and precious, precious energy.

00:01:31 Tim

Today, our guest shares his story of learning sign language and eventually becoming a sign language interpreter.

00:01:38 Tim

His journey has taken him to many places, including the development of his skills and…

00:01:46 Tim

…his confidence. So don't be afraid.

00:01:48 Tim

Just listen to his story as a sign language interpreter. Let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:01:58 Tim

Our guest is Dr Paul Michaels, a fully qualified and registered sign language interpreter from the UK. He is an independent researcher, professional supervisor, and interpreter assessor.

00:02:11 Tim

Not too long ago he was awarded his PhD in sociology, which we'll learn a little bit more here really soon.

00:02:19 Tim

Today we learn more about his being a researcher, being an interpreter, all about the man who is not “the walrus” (for those of you are Beatles’ fans). But we call him…Paul.

00:02:32 Tim

Welcome to the podcast, Paul.

00:02:34 Paul

Thank you.

00:02:34 Paul

Thanks for having me.

00:02:35 Tim

It's good to see you.

00:02:37 Tim

I believe we met at the last efsli conference.

00:02:40 Paul

We did.

00:02:40 Paul

And many times, before that.

00:02:43 Tim

Many times, before that, yes.

00:02:45 Tim

Yeah, I don't think I've ever asked you, but I'd like now.

00:02:49 Tim

Now, how did you get into interpreting?

00:02:53 Paul

Yeah, So…

00:02:55 Paul

Back in 2001, January 2001, my niece was diagnosed as deaf.

00:03:02 Paul

She was about 2 1/2 at the time. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:03:08 Paul

And I knew at that point that I would need to communicate with her.

00:03:11 Paul

Sign language.

00:03:13 Paul

The only other exposure I'd had to sign language was actually my dad's cousins. [Tim: hmm]

00:03:21 Paul

They lived in California in the United States.

00:03:27 Paul

And two of the three of them were deaf. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:03:30 Paul

We're not quite sure why or how because they were diagnosed. You know back in the… [both chuckling]

00:03:38 Paul

…not the dark ages, but quite a while ago.

00:03:41 Paul

And, and…

00:03:42 Paul

We kind of suspected that they were deaf because of X-rays that their mother had while they were while she was pregnant with them. We think.

00:03:50 Tim

Hmm.

00:03:51 Paul

So we don't think it's a, a genetic… [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:03:56 Paul

But anyway, I knew that I would need to use sign language with her, so that following September 2001 I went to an evening class and did my level 1 basic sign language.

00:04:10 Paul

And passed that went on and did my Level 2 and my teacher at the time said. I don't think you're going to pass, but you might as well go for the exam anyway.

00:04:19 Paul

I said yeah, that's fine. Because… [Tim chuckles]

00:04:21 Paul

You know, at that time sign language interpreting was not on my radar at all, so. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:04:27 Paul

I passed my level 2 to the surprise of everybody. [Tim laughing] And, and that was it.

00:04:31 Paul

I thought that was my kind of interpreting career, but my, my kind of sign language connection and career finished.

00:04:38 Tim

Yeah, yeah.

00:04:40 Paul

But it was maybe a couple of years later. I wasn't really happy with my work.

00:04:46 Paul

I was doing sales and consultancy kind of work.

00:04:48 Paul

I just really wasn't enjoying it, so I wanted something else and the only thing I could do that I kind of enjoyed was sign language. [Tim: hmm]

00:04:57 Paul

And so, I got a job as the coordinator in an agency, sign language interpreting agency, which meant that I was exposed to a lot more deaf people.

00:05:05 Paul

They had deaf people in the team.

00:05:07 Paul

Our boss was Deaf, so I started using much more sign language. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:05:13 Paul

And then I decided to go on and do my Level 3 and progressed to do interpreting qualification.

00:05:20 Paul

But I really fell into interpreting, so I didn't plan to become an interpreter.

00:05:26 Paul

I'm really pleased that I did fall into it, actually.

00:05:30 Paul

My brother says he should take all the credit for my earnings and my career.

00:05:36 Paul

We, we beg to differ on that, [both laughing] … I put in the hard work.

00:05:42 Tim

So, this is British Sign language, right?

00:05:44 Paul

Absolutely, yeah.

00:05:46 Tim

OK. And why does your brother think he deserves all the credit?

00:05:49 Paul

Well, because I wouldn't have been an interpreter if his daughter wasn't Deaf.

00:05:52 Paul

So that's where his reasoning came.

00:05:53 Tim

Ahh, OK. [both laughing]

00:05:54 Paul

I tend to disagree with that.

00:05:59 Tim

So, did your brother, your niece's family learn sign language as well?

00:06:03 Paul

Yeah, absolutely. My brother did level 1. He is not great at sign language, but my sister-in-law, uh, she went on to complete her Level 3 and she actually worked as a communication support worker in a school. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:06:19 Paul

And she… Yeah. So, she used sign language a lot with my niece at home.

00:06:23 Paul

My brother would tend to speak, so my niece was really exposed to both spoken language and sign language within the home environment.

00:06:31 Tim

Right.

00:06:32 Paul

And no, I think there's pluses and minuses to that, but I think it's really stood her in a good position to be able to work as she does or has done in many hearing environments. She's really excelled obviously with the use of interpreters as well, but she's been able to adapt very much to the hearing world, but still has, you know, very close connections…

00:06:55 Paul

…to the deaf community... on a social level.

00:07:00 Tim

Yeah, and where is this in the UK?

00:07:02 Paul

So, my family were in Essex. So, my niece went to school in Essex, which is kind of to the right of London. Come out of London, turn right and you’re there.

00:07:14 Tim

So where were your classes then…in BSL?

00:07:17 Paul

Yeah. So, my first, my level 1 and level two were in London and my Level 3 was down in Brighton on the coast, South Coast. And then from my level 4, I was up in Durham.

00:07:30 Paul

So, I did a postgraduate diploma in Durham and the first part of that was level 4, equivalent to level 6 now. [Tim: hmm]

00:07:39 Paul

So, we're looking at the linguistics of BSL.

00:07:42 Tim

Yeah.

00:07:42 Paul

So, in a few different places that I did my sign language development.

00:07:47 Tim

Did you notice differences in the deaf communities in those places, or was it pretty much the same?

00:07:53 Paul

I think the deaf communities were pretty much the same, but of course you've got regional variation of sign language, which I found tricky to begin with.

00:08:02 Paul

Particularly up in, in Durham, the north of England, many more differences than I realised at that time.

00:08:12 Paul

And so actually my sign name changed whilst I was up in Durham because I used to have to ask the tutor, the lovely Judith Collins who's no longer with us. But I used to have to ask her to clarify the signs that she was using.

00:08:28 Paul

So that's where she gave me my surname of CLARIFY [both chuckling] because, because I didn't know what the Durham signs were. [Tim: ahh] Because I was used to the London signs. That's mine. I've always got that. [both slightly chuckling]

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:08:43 Tim

If you listen to this podcast and enjoy it, please subscribe to the newsletter.

00:08:47 Tim

This helps me get the word out to even more interpreters around the world, so click on the links in the show notes and don't forget to share with your friends and colleagues.

00:08:58 Tim

Now let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:09:00 Tim

So, what type of interpreting did you start out as and is there a particular situation that you kind of tend to enjoy more?

00:09:10 Paul

I started out as sort of a Communication Support Worker.

00:09:16 Paul

Before I got my qualifications as a sign language interpreter.

00:09:19 Paul

So, I would work in schools, colleges, mostly colleges, I would say.

00:09:23 Paul

Not so much schools, but some schools, but mostly colleges or deaf people's workplaces. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:09:32 Paul

And that's where I kind of got my grounding and it seems to be the case in the UK that a lot of people will start their own career in those kinds of areas. [Tim: yeah]

00:09:44 Paul

And so, I have taken that really throughout my career.

00:09:50 Paul

I, I’ve, I’ve often worked…

00:09:52 Paul

I’ve done a lot of what we call Access to Work, or we call designated interpreting, so, with deaf professionals in the workplace.

00:10:00 Paul

Not so much college or university work now, simply because of…

00:10:07 Paul

I guess my diary. They, you know, they like to have some continuity and my diary doesn't allow for that.

00:10:14 Tim

Yeah.

00:10:15 Paul

So, I… So, I do miss that actually because I really enjoy working with a student throughout their course and really getting to grips with the language that's used within the course and really being able to support the student effectively.

00:10:30 Paul

So that was where a lot of my work started.

00:10:34 Paul

And then I moved into other areas, so quite a bit of performance interpreting, theatre interpreting.

00:10:42 Paul

And in more recent years, things like mental health interpreting.

00:10:46 Paul

So, it's taken me, I would say quite a long time to diversify my domains. [Tim: Mm-hmm] Because I, I was always quite cautious of areas that I haven't worked in before.

00:10:54 Paul

Umm.

00:11:03 Paul

I'm sort of always doubting, you know, can I do this?

00:11:06 Paul

You know, for example, with mental health interpreting, I thought it was going to be a quite traumatic area, but actually I realised it's a very rewarding area to work... [Tim: yeah]

00:11:14 Paul

…on a ward or, you know, within the community.

00:11:17 Paul

And actually, very recently, within the last couple of months, I've started to do some VRS and VRI work, which is something I haven't done before.

00:11:26 Paul

So, now I’m exploring that area, which I'm really enjoying, to be honest, I didn't think I would enjoy that [Tim chuckles] because I like to kind of know who I'm working with.

00:11:36 Paul

And so, when you get somebody popping up on screen and you don't know where they're from and what they're going to be talking about, their style of sign language, it can be a bit nerve-wracking, but I'm actually enjoying that challenge. Uh… Finally. [chuckles]

00:11:50 Tim

Yeah.

00:11:51 Tim

Yeah. What do you base it on? Or rather, what pushed you to the point to go ahead and accept that diversity, that going from what you were doing to say, the mental health or any of them? What, what is it that allowed you to have the confidence to do it.

00:12:08 Paul

I think there's a few things.

00:12:12 Paul

Firstly, through professional supervision, receiving professional supervision, I've been able to really look at the sense of being not confident as an interpreter. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:12:29 Paul

So, you know, I'll often doubt my abilities, and I've, and I think that stems, you know, we won't go into family therapy. [both laughing]

00:12:40 Paul

Let's, let's just, let's just say I think that stems from, from life, you know, and…

00:12:45 Tim

Right.

00:12:46 Paul

And I have worked a lot…

00:12:50 Paul

..on my… confidence.

00:12:52 Paul

And through professional supervision, it's encouraged me to at least explore avenues.

00:13:02 Paul

And if I find that it's not an avenue I like, well, then that's fine.

00:13:06 Paul

You know, I have done that with some legal work, for example.

00:13:12 Paul

I've never done a police booking, but it's something that I will explore at some point. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:13:19 Paul

And so, talking that through in professional supervision, but also talking with colleagues and find - really finding out, you know, what is it like?

00:13:28 Paul

So, finding people who already work in that domain and really get to grips with what's involved.

00:13:36 Paul

And thinking about, “Am I right person for that?”

00:13:38 Paul

How am I going to deal with that particular domain? [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:13:43 Paul

So, I think there's, yeah… So, there's been a couple of reasons as to why I've started to explore and end up working in particular areas like that, but I wouldn't be able to say it's one particular thing or one particular moment.

00:13:55 Paul

I think it's a combination.

00:13:57 Tim

Yeah.

00:13:58 Paul

And being ready, you know, in a career, you…

00:14:00 Paul

…I have found that I've changed very much over the years that I've been working as an interpreter and so.

00:14:10 Paul

You know you…

00:14:11 Paul

I have built a lot of skills and knowledge and understanding of, of interpreted situations, people, domains, life experience, and so I feel that that's prepared me rather than rushing into something I am always quite a cautious person. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:14:33 Tim

After you changed and said OK, I'm gonna go ahead and do this. And after you started doing it, were the things that you learned about you that, that surprised you?

00:14:42 Paul

Yes, I think so.

00:14:44 Paul

I think the realisation that I can do things [Tim: Mm-hmm] when I, when I think that I can't. [Tim: Mm-hmm] And the realisation that sometimes I build things up in my mind that are not necessarily true.

00:14:59 Paul

You know, I think when the… when I started to engage with mental health work, I thought that I was going to be constantly at risk. I thought that I was going to be seeing people in very distressed states.

00:15:15 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:15:16 Paul

I thought that it was going to be quite traumatic.

00:15:19 Paul

And I realized that in the - particularly in the ward that I've, you know, work in regularly, [Tim: Mm-hmm] that's not the case.

00:15:28 Paul

And in fact, it's a very nurturing and positive environment.

00:15:32 Paul

I always thought it was going to be very negative and I'm not a negative person.

00:15:35 Paul

I don't like negativity, which is possibly why I've not done a police booking.

00:15:40 Paul

So, I liked positive things and when I actually go onto the ward and I see people getting better and I see people discharged and I see people, you know, getting back into the community and living independently. It's brilliant and I love that. And I've realized it's not a terrible situation to be in.

00:15:59 Paul

So, I've learnt then for myself to be a bit more open and not have so many preconceived ideas of what I think a domain is going to be, without giving it a go or really exploring it and researching it.

00:16:13 Paul

So, I've learnt to have a bit more of an open mind, I would say.

00:16:16 Tim

Yeah, that goes back to you learning sign language and not knowing if you're gonna pass the level 2 exam, the assumptions there, and then you see that the assumptions, well, they're just assumptions. All of us mature in that way over time and as a person.

00:16:28 Paul

Yeah.

00:16:32 Paul

And also, just think that back then, when I was doing my level 1 and my level 2 because I wasn't working towards becoming an interpreter, I was simply learning to communicate with my niece.

00:16:44 Paul

And that's what I thought was going to be the outcome of doing my sign language. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:16:49 Paul

I think if I was going into it with a different mindset, as this is going to be a career for me, I would have probably practised more.

00:16:57 Paul

I would have been exposed to more deaf people and I would have you know, had a very different experience.

00:17:02 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:17:04 Paul

And so yeah, so I think that that is different. And of course, then once I started to do my level 4 up in Durham when I kind of thought that that's the route I was going to be taking then I was a lot more serious about what I was learning.

00:17:21 Tim

Yeah. Yeah.

00:17:22 Tim

I wonder whether it would have been harder to be serious in the beginning.

00:17:27 Tim

So it was easier, more relaxed, learning the language, and so you were more open to learning without the seriousness, you might say.

00:17:35 Paul

And I…

00:17:35 Paul

And I think that Level 1 and level 2 should be enjoyable. You know, I don't think it would be much of a stressful experience for people because it will prevent them from going on to Level 3, level 4, level 5-6, whatever.

00:17:47 Tim

Yeah.

00:17:49 Paul

So, so, I think you know teachers that encourage a relaxed learning environment are good in that respect.

00:17:56 Tim

Yeah, yeah.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:17:58 Tim

Did you click on the links in the show notes and subscribe to the newsletter? Not yet?

00:18:03 Tim

Why not? Just pause this episode go down to the show notes, click on the link and join the newsletter.

00:18:08 Tim

It's that simple.

00:18:09 Tim

And then you'll come back to this episode, and then we'll start again.

00:18:12 Tim

Thank you.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:18:15 Tim

So, you started your career as you do, where you live, in the UK, but as we all know, life changes and it takes us to places that we never expect.

00:18:27 Tim

So, tell us a little bit about that journey, where you are now.

00:18:31 Paul

Yeah. So, at the moment I'm, I've got quite a flexible work-life balance to be honest.

00:18:42 Paul

So just through COVID, my partner got a job in New York.

00:18:48 Paul

And so relocated from London to New York.

00:18:53 Paul

And at that time, I was doing my PhD. And so, I was working part time, anyway. I would say, as I was doing my PhD part time and so I started to go back and forth to New York.

00:19:09 Paul

So, I would have wonderful days in the New York City Library. [Tim chuckling]

00:19:15 Paul

Doing my research… And I felt like a real academic because I was surrounded by wood and books that smelt like old books. [Tim still chuckling]

00:19:25 Paul

So, I really, really enjoyed the time that I had in New York whilst I was doing my PhD.

00:19:32 Paul

So, once I finished, I then was still going back and forth to New York between New York and London.

00:19:40 Paul

And I then did a few more sort of interpreting jobs online with, with some regular clients. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:19:49 Paul

But strangely I had this weird notion that, uh, it wasn't gonna work, being in New York online and interpreting in London. And, you know, technology was - I'm an OK adopter of technology, but I'm always worried that if the technology fails then, you know that's not, it's not a good representation of professional interpreter.

00:20:11 Tim

Right.

00:20:12 Paul

But I started to explore jobs a little bit more, and so did some online work.

00:20:19 Paul

And more recently, in January, just a few weeks ago, my partner started a new job in Bangkok. [Tim: Wow]

00:20:26 Paul

So, I'm now not going backwards and forth to New York and now going to be going backwards and forward to Bangkok.

00:20:34 Paul

Which is a longer journey ehh... [Tim chuckles]

00:20:38 Paul

Way more expensive flights.

00:20:40 Tim

Hmm.

00:20:41 Paul

But umm…

00:20:42 Paul

A great experience. And I'm, I'm really enjoying it, so I'm, I'm now talking to you from Bangkok, where it’s hot.

00:20:50 Paul

We're coming into the hot season, so it's going to hotter. [Tim: oh] But it's it's really now a very… I've got a very different mindset about working online. And I've realised that the Wi-Fi speed here in Bangkok is way better than it is in England. [both chuckle]

00:21:07 Paul

So, actually better equipped to be working here than I am in London.

00:21:12 Paul

But I because I recently joined an organization for VRS and VRI interpreting, I'm able to do a couple of hours shifts with them.

00:21:26 Paul

My time is slightly different, so I have the mornings free [Tim: Mm-hmm] here to do research.

00:21:33 Paul

Or, you know, life's admin.

00:21:35 Paul

And then I have the afternoon. So, I normally start working around 3:00 in the afternoon and then go through - depending on what time I finish. Sometimes it can be 7:00 PM, sometimes it's a bit later depending on which client I've got, and you know, who I'm working with. [Tim: yeah]

00:21:53 Paul

And it's yeah, so far so good.

00:21:56 Paul

I'm really enjoying it and I, I, I’m, I'm not missing the cold weather in London in January. [both laughing]

00:22:03 Paul

That's for sure.

00:22:05 Paul

Or New York.

00:22:06 Paul

We looked at the New York weather and it was -15 at 6:00 in the morning.

00:22:10 Paul

And we were…

00:22:11 Paul

We were I think 28° at 7:00 in the evening or something like that.

00:22:16 Paul

Yeah, big difference. [chuckling]

00:22:18 Tim

Yeah. Right.

00:22:19 Paul

It is hot anyway.

00:22:20 Tim

It's hot. [both laughing]

00:22:23 Tim

Ah, hmm, well, it's 28 there now.

00:22:26 Paul

Yeah.

00:22:26 Paul

Yeah, 33°.

00:22:28 Tim

Wow. Yeah, that's a little warm, a little warm in Celsius. Yeah, definitely.

00:22:34 Tim

So, do you have any work at all in Thailand as an interpreter.

00:22:38 Paul

No, I'm, I'm on a what we call a digital nomad visa. [Tim: Mm-hmm] So, I cannot work in Thailand for a Thai organization.

00:22:47 Paul

All of my income has to come from overseas, as a digital nomad.

00:22:54 Paul

And I mean, I don't know Thai sign language.

00:22:56 Paul

So that's, that's a big stumbling block. [both chuckle]

00:23:00 Paul

Umm.

00:23:01 Paul

And I've yet to kind of meet any people from the deaf community here in Thailand. There's a couple of universities here that teach interpreting - sign language interpreting who I'm going to contact.

00:23:15 Paul

And, uh, and uh, hopefully establish some networks with them, but I certainly wouldn't be able to work in Thailand on the visa that I’m on.

00:23:21 Tim

Right.

00:23:22 Paul

Plus, I also have my supervision work which happens remotely.

00:23:26 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:23:27 Paul

And so yeah, there's, there are no barriers actually, at the moment, to working and still keeping connected to the UK.

00:23:35 Tim

Yeah, yeah, that's nice.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:23:42 Tim

It's always fun to talk to other interpreters and find out how they finally got into the profession.

00:23:48 Tim

Here we have an example of Paul learning sign language, first for a good reason, and then later finding that he truly enjoyed the language and saw the opportunity to become an interpreter.

00:24:01 Tim

That is another example, telling us that it is true that we love interpreting. And when you love what you do, you have a passion for it you do even better. You excel at it.

00:24:14 Tim

You enjoy it so much it doesn't feel like work, and that's when you learn to get better and better at what you do.

00:24:22 Tim

It's when we see that if we just give ourselves a little push and gain a little more confidence, we see that stepping over the threshold into a new room, a new situation that we haven't been in before and we actually start to think, wow, I can do this.

00:24:41 Tim

I doing the same thing, I'm just doing it somewhere else with new people with new vocabulary, giving ourselves that little push to try.

00:24:52 Tim

Having colleagues around US, mentors, community of colleagues helping us, guiding us, encouraging us and congratulating us, celebrating with us as we hit those milestones of development and achievement, it's a great thing. In fact, the community is key for all of us, the interpreting community.

00:25:17 Tim

Such as the IW community, if you click on the links in the show notes, you'll see the IW community where we come together and talk about these things and give each other those pushes.

00:25:30 Tim

One point that Paul kind of glossed over is he said he was ready.

00:25:35 Tim

He made himself ready for those opportunities when the push happened.

00:25:40 Tim

It was a subtle clue for us to prepare ourselves to give ourselves the development of our skills, to work on our knowledge, to work on our understanding of the profession. All of those things helping us come to the moment of a “push”, an opportunity to do something new, to gain more confidence.

00:26:04 Tim

But we have the skills already developed to help us to handle it.

00:26:09 Tim

That is important and I think that is another reason why we need to have ongoing education and, and to dive into it with enthusiasm and enjoyment.

00:26:20 Tim

That's what life and work balance is all about.

00:26:22 Tim

Enjoying what you do on both sides of the scale.

00:26:26 Tim

So next week we're going to talk with Paul a little bit more about his work as an interpreter and we'll get into his research, which is quite fascinating, but I'll leave that for another episode.

00:26:38 Tim

Until then, keep calm.

00:26:41 Tim

Keep – hmmm – confidently interpreting.

00:26:45 Tim

I'll see you next week. Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:27:23]