IW 141: Interview Isabelle Heyerick Part 3: Pride Comes Before a Sustained Fall

WE CAN'T GO ON! Yes, we can. We just need a bit of work.

Isabelle gives us reasons to use what linguistics has to offer to make our interpreting strategies work in new ways. She also tells us the answers to the question; will we still have sign language interpreters in the future?

The answer, as you might think, is - it depends. It depends on how we confront the working conditions, educational gaps and more that are impacting our profession.

Enjoy this until next week's episode continues the conversation with Isabelle Heyerick.

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Transcript

IW 141: Interview Isabelle Heyerick Part 3: Pride Comes Before a Sustained Fall

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS]

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:34 Tim

And now the quote of the day by Denis Waitley, American motivational speaker and writer.

00:00:42 Tim

“Don't wait for an employer, friend, or mentor to show appreciation for your work. Take pride in your own efforts on a daily basis.”

00:00:54 Tim

Today's episode we continue the conversation with Dr Isabelle Heyerick from Belgium living in Dublin, Ireland.

00:01:03 Tim

Today we delve a little bit more into the topic of linguistics and why she believes it's important for all interpreters to understand it and apply it to our work.

00:01:14 Tim

We discussed some of her research now and talk about whether or not the sign language profession will continue and how we might be able to save the profession from going away.

00:01:28 Tim

Her research details some of the stressors that impact whether or not our profession will live on.

00:01:36 Tim

So, turn up the volume. Let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:01:43 Tim

So let me ask you a maybe a sensitive topic for a linguist, but…

00:01:48 Tim

What is it that non-linguists think about linguistics, but they get it wrong?

00:01:54 Tim

Or they misunderstand.

00:01:56 Isabelle

That it’s only for linguists. [both chuckle]

00:02:00 Tim

In what way?

00:02:01 Isabelle

Yeah, I think people who would consider themselves non-linguists.

00:02:07 Tim

Mm.

00:02:08 Isabelle

May be underestimate, the power and the importance of language and linguistics.

00:02:18 Isabelle

And maybe assume it's not for them because they're not considered with like the morphology, or the phonotics, or the grammar of a language, which I think is a misconception.

00:02:30 Isabelle

It might be also just the field, that kind of…

00:02:36 Isabelle

“PRs” itself as being complex and out there and… but it really is not, and it is…

00:02:43 Isabelle

I mean, it really is a field about something that we all use.

00:02:50 Isabelle

Every day in any modality [Tim: Mm-hmm] where it's written, signed, spoken, gestures.

00:02:57 Isabelle

It's such an intricate part of our life that actually everybody should be a linguist. [chuckles, Tim joins]

00:03:05 Isabelle

And the idea that like, well, it doesn't really matter to me or it's something blue sky that those people do there and they just like, [Tim: Mm-hmm] like in sign language, linguistics would say like, “Oh, you look at these like…milliseconds of a sign to define if the pinky was stretched out or bent. That's silly.”

00:03:27 Isabelle

To a certain extent it is, but to another extent it also is not.

00:03:31 Isabelle

And there's always a very applied side to linguistics, which will impact your education, [Tim: Mm-hmm] even impacts like how you receive information or how information is presented to you.

00:03:45 Isabelle

So, understanding the power of language also, I think just makes you a more empowered citizen. [laughs]

00:03:53 Isabelle

You understand how language works and how language can be manipulated. And like one of my things, I love to talk about, which has nothing to do with sign language is…

00:04:03 Isabelle

How we have evolved and how we talk about the climate crisis. If you look at, like, the terms and terminology that were used in the 1970s, and you look at which terms and terminology is used now, you see complete shift of an ideology of thinking about this phenomenon. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:04:25 Isabelle

So now we're more talking about, like, climate change and things like that, like the whole “crisis” aspect is kind of like being nullified by the words we use.

00:04:38 Isabelle

And I think like just understanding these little things, that this is how language works and especially as an interpreter. [chuckles]

00:04:46 Isabelle

If somebody says, “climate crisis” and you translated or you interpret it as climate change. What did you do there? [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:04:55 Isabelle

And why did you do that?

00:04:57 Isabelle

And what is now the impact of the message?

00:05:00 Tim

Yeah.

00:05:01 Isabelle

These things? Yeah, I, I, I mean, I can go on like forever about language and why I think everybody should delve into linguistics a little bit.

00:05:10 Isabelle

I mean. Pick your topic, pick your sub field like if you're not into phonetics and phonology, I won't blame you. [Tim chuckles]

00:05:17 Isabelle

It's probably not the most sexy [both slightly chuckle] part of linguistics, but I mean if you can get into like discourse analysis or language ideologies or just these kind of things. I cannot see how not everybody would be excited... [both laughing]

00:05:34 Isabelle

…to know more about that.

00:05:36 Isabelle

Yeah, the idea that “it's not for me”.

00:05:39 Isabelle

I don't think so.

00:05:40 Isabelle

Probably the biggest misconception.

00:05:42 Tim

Yeah.

00:05:43 Tim

Wait, so you're saying that linguistics is not just about morphology, phonetics, and morphemes?

00:05:49 Isabelle

Exactly. It's not just about morphology.

00:05:52 Isabelle

It's not just about phonetics, phonology.

00:05:56 Isabelle

It's not just about grammar.

00:05:57 Isabelle

It's not about nouns and verbs.

00:06:00 Isabelle

I mean, linguistics is also sociolinguistics. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:06:03 Isabelle

It's also like how people use language in certain contexts.

00:06:07 Isabelle

And I mean, as an interpreter, that's what you want to understand.

00:06:11 Tim

Yeah.

00:06:11 Isabelle

Why do people use this type of language in this context? And what are they trying to achieve with it? And how can I as an interpreter in the decisions I make through my interpretation make sure that this goal is also achieved in the other language? Like, this is just… you want to know this. You want to understand this.

00:06:33 Isabelle

No, it's not just… I mean morphology is important. [laughing, Tim joins]

00:06:38 Isabelle

But not like the form of it is important.

00:06:41 Isabelle

But the meaning of it, pragmatics, I mean pragmatics is just a really wonderful field to dive into, yeah.

00:06:49 Tim

Hmm.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:06:54 Tim

So other researchers in the field of sign language interpreting, especially those who are just now wanting to delve into it, or even those who are experienced, what advice would you tell them or what would you say to your colleagues we should be doing it this way or we should be making sure we remember this or this?

00:07:15 Isabelle

Good question.

00:07:17 Isabelle

I think first of all, I would tell them to consider who they are.

00:07:24 Isabelle

And why they want to do this research?

00:07:26 Isabelle

So, think about your positionality, and think about your rationale. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:07:31 Isabelle

Dare to ask yourself, am I the right person to do this research?

00:07:34 Isabelle

I've started asking that question, myself, more and more.

00:07:39 Isabelle

It has led me to not research certain topics because I'm not the right person to do that, and I've only started to ask myself these questions only during my PhD because I was encouraged by deaf scholars to ask these questions. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:07:56 Isabelle

“Encouraged” is like a very nice way of saying it. [Tim chuckles] But it's true. And it's true for any research for any field like, are you the right person to answer these questions?

00:08:09 Isabelle

And if you think like, “Yeah.”, this is appropriate.

00:08:13 Isabelle

Then think about your positionality. How that influences how you look at things, how you frame things, how you will approach this research.

00:08:22 Isabelle

So that would be my first advice probably.

00:08:26 Tim

If you weren't sure, how would you find out?

00:08:29 Tim

Would you ask the people that you might be involving in the research?

00:08:33 Tim

It depends on the research, I guess.

00:08:35 Isabelle

Hmm.

00:08:35 Tim

But who would you ask?

00:08:37 Tim

Am I the appropriate one, or would you rather someone else study this?

00:08:41 Isabelle

Well, I think you can…

00:08:43 Isabelle

You can ask yourself, and you can do this by really engaging in like academic reflexivity. And somebody who's working a lot on that in relation to sign language interpreting actually is Karolien Gebruers.

00:08:56 Isabelle

So, there are models out there that can actually guide you in answering these questions for yourself, and you will read other research, and you will discover that, OK, this research was done by such and such.

00:09:12 Isabelle

And maybe they have made some recommendations that in the future... Like, I have some research where I said like in the future this should be explored more, but it should be Deaf-lead. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:09:24 Isabelle

So, these kind of things are already indications and also like we live in, in a time now in its zeitgeist, if you will, when we're sensitive of this, like in the whole decolonizing… umm…

00:09:38 Isabelle

…the curriculum research. Like, it also applies to deaf studies. And sign language interpreting is a part of Deaf Studies.

00:09:45 Isabelle

So, I think it's also important to acknowledge that. That sign language interpreting is not just linguistics and interpreting.

00:09:53 Isabelle

It’s part of Deaf Studies.

00:09:54 Isabelle

It belongs within Deaf Studies, right?

00:09:57 Isabelle

So, if you're going to explore the lived experiences of deaf people through sign language interpreting services. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:10:06 Isabelle

And you don't have that lived experience, you're probably not the best person to do that.

00:10:12 Isabelle

And it goes wider than that. Like…

00:10:14 Isabelle

We still have people in centers of Asian Studies who are not Asian themselves, [Tim: Mm-hmm] who go there and do their research, then come back. And I don't think we're in 2025, in an environment where that should still be possible.

00:10:34 Isabelle

So yeah, dare yourself to find those hard questions and don't be afraid, because there will always be something for you to research. Right.

00:10:40 Isabelle

It might not be the idea you first had. And also, I want to, to maybe make a point that sometimes people say, “Well, but if we don't do it, it won't be done.” [chuckles] [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:10:53 Isabelle

Which a lot of like hearing researchers when in Deaf Studies would say, “Well, who else is going to do it?” Well, I think a lot of times it’s better that you don't do it.

00:11:03 Isabelle

And believe me, somebody will step up and maybe we have to invest in making sure that yeah, deaf people can do this research. Right? Invest in their education. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:11:14 Isabelle

So, so, I think that's an important one positionality rationale. Is this a good fit? Is this acceptable?

00:11:21 Isabelle

And if you're not sure, ask people.

00:11:25 Isabelle

Ask other researcher[s]. Ask other academics.

00:11:28 Isabelle

Ask other people in the field. And yeah, ask the people you would do the research for.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:11:35 Tim

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00:11:38 Tim

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00:11:40 Tim

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00:11:47 Tim

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00:11:51 Tim

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00:11:54 Tim

Thank you. Let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:11:58 Tim

So, from your research is there something you were hoping to get at? Something to open up or to expose to see, but you just didn't find it and why?

00:12:13 Isabelle

I'm, I'm, I'm thinking, because obviously now I'm going through like the different research projects in my head. [both laugh]

00:12:20 Isabelle

So, like, flicking through my files. [both laughing]

00:12:24 Isabelle

This one. This one. This one…ummm…

00:12:28 Isabelle

There's maybe one I can point a little bit to, but I think it has more to do with how I approach the research [Tim: hmm] than anything else.

00:12:41 Isabelle

And it's going to be about like the last piece of research I did, which is looking at the sustainability of the sign language profession. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:12:50 Isabelle

So obviously I, I did this research from the interpreters’ perspective and this ties back to what I was talking about. Like it's important to understand who you are yourself and which research you can do.

00:13:02 Isabelle

I try like in my research to also always make it clear that, I'm a sign language interpreter.

00:13:08 Isabelle

I'm doing this research, and I put the interpreter central.

00:13:13 Isabelle

Which does not mean there is not other important participants in this ecosystem, which also should be included, and their opinion should be heard, and researched. It’s just, I'm not going to do that.

00:13:28 Isabelle

So, this research topic, the Sustainability of the Sign Language Interpreting Profession I approached from, “OK what do interpreters say about it?”

00:13:36 Isabelle

What do they think?

00:13:36 Isabelle

How do they feel about it?

00:13:39 Isabelle

Why do they leave the profession?

00:13:41 Isabelle

Why do they reduce their hours?

00:13:43 Isabelle

Why do they turn to other jobs?

00:13:45 Isabelle

Why do they sometimes increase their hours?

00:13:48 Isabelle

And what would they need to make of this profession, something that’s more viable, more sustainable. [Tim: hmm]

00:13:56 Isabelle

And one of the things that kind of came out of the research is that the fact that governments put in place initiatives to provide more support for sign language interpreting services to deaf signers, does motivate interpreters to increase their hours because they kind of know okay the government is funding this, so there will be job security. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:14:21 Isabelle

Now what I did not kind of think of until after the research was finished and through like more critical thinking was that…

00:14:31 Isabelle

But this is also something that can put a lot of pressure on the sign language interpreting profession. The fact that it almost becomes like, the accepted solution for anything where a deaf signer wants access is, “Oh, OK interpreter.”

00:14:52 Isabelle

So, a lot more areas of society are of the, of, of life are being made accessible, so to speak, for deaf signers by providing interpreters. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:15:03 Isabelle

But in a lot of cases, the sign language interpreting profession is already under pressure.

00:15:08 Isabelle

There's already a huge supply and demand outweigh, like, it's not balanced.

00:15:14 Isabelle

So, by increasing deaf signers’ rights to sign language interpreting professions, it's putting even more pressure on the profession.

00:15:22 Isabelle

So, I was thinking like, but what about alternatives like De Meulder and Haualand?

00:15:28 Isabelle

They have a really good article talking about this Quick Fix, right? [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:15:34 Isabelle

So, this Illusion of inclusion and the fact that sign language interpreting services are kind of like a quick fix.

00:15:39 Isabelle

And they make the point of like, why are governments not investing in language concordant services?

00:15:45 Isabelle

So, services provided in sign language.

00:15:49 Isabelle

And I think that's such a valid point. And I actually think if we would have more of that, it would make our profession more sustainable. But obviously that did not really come up [both laughing] in the research. 

00:16:02 Isabelle

Also, because as I said, how I approached the research, it was more like a critical thinking that came to me by reading the work of other people and tying the dots together and going like, Oh yeah, actually.

00:16:15 Isabelle

So now in the research reports I publish...

00:16:18 Isabelle

So, there's one about the profession in Belgium, Flanders and one about profession in Ireland.

00:16:24 Isabelle

I do make that comment that probably we need some more research to see on how other ways of guaranteeing linguistic rights for deaf signers could also alleviate some of the pressures on the profession. So yeah.

00:16:41 Tim

Hmm, that's been said by other people I've talked to.

00:16:45 Tim

Why not just learn sign language?

00:16:47 Isabelle

It's one thing, why not just learn sign languages, but also why not invest in employment for deaf people?

00:16:54 Tim

Exactly.

00:16:54 Isabelle

Have deaf nurses, have deaf psychologists, have deaf doctors, have deaf people work in governmental institutions so that if deaf people need that type of service…

00:17:07 Isabelle

Because it's much more than the language. [starting to laugh]

00:17:09 Isabelle

Here goes the linguist who says it's “all about language”. [Tim laughing]

00:17:13 Isabelle

But it's much… like in those types of situations, it's much more than just a language. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:17:19 Isabelle

So, I'm, I'm, I'm yeah. All about like just more deaf people delivering services, definitely yeah, not just hearing...

00:17:28

But it's great, hearing people learning the sign language [Tim: yeah] and being able to give these services to deaf people in sign language is really good, but let's also think about deaf people themselves.

00:17:41 Tim

I think that's the best way to do it is to start with giving opportunities for deaf people in their areas to actually work in these organizations, these institutions and that, just like having a new employee in your workplace, you get to know them.

00:17:56 Tim

And if there's a deaf person there? Oh, I'm going to learn a little bit of sign language. And that gives more motivation to add in now let's start teaching sign language.

00:18:04 Isabelle

Yeah, I, I think indeed like investing in deaf professionals. [Tim: Mm-hmm] That's the first step and maybe a little bit steering away of creating hearing professionals using sign language, yeah.

00:18:18 Tim

I agree.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:18:22 Tim

Speaking of your research then, this current research you just mentioned about the sustainability of our profession. What did you find out?

00:18:29 Tim

Are we still here or not? [chuckles]

00:18:32 Isabelle

What do you think, Tim? [both chuckle slightly]

00:18:35 Isabelle

Well, let's say that I found out that in its current state, it's not very sustainable.

00:18:41 Tim

Ouch. [Isabelle: yeah]

00:18:44 Isabelle

Again, to make clear, and this has to do with who I am, this is a very European White Western-ed Research result because I did the research in Belgium, Flanders and I did the research in Ireland, which are both countries where sign language interpreters are working in a self-employed status. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:19:06 Isabelle

So, they are sole traders or self-employed.

00:19:11 Isabelle

And that is probably the biggest issue for those countries in terms of sustainability.

00:19:19 Tim

And why is that?

00:19:20 Tim

Why is that a difficulty for them?

00:19:22 Isabelle

So, the difficulty lies in the fact that being in that model kind of creates precarious working conditions in terms of job insecurity and financial instability.

00:19:36 Isabelle

So, you're not always secure that there's going to be interpreting jobs [Tim: Mmm] each week.

00:19:42 Isabelle

And we all know there are periods of just lower requests like summer months, holidays, what have you not? And there's no social or financial protection to kind of bridge those lower activity periods if you want.

00:19:59 Isabelle

There's no social financial protection for illness, maternity leave caretaking responsibilities.

00:20:07 Isabelle

All those protections you do have if you have an employee status where if you're ill, fine. You still get your wages, you have maternity leave, which will be covered, etcetera. And that in combination with the fact that sign language interpreting is a predominantly female profession adds to the precariousness.

00:20:33 Isabelle

And there are differences between Ireland and Flanders.

00:20:36 Isabelle

So, in Flanders I did find that younger…

00:20:39 Isabelle

So, let's say interpreters who come into the field at an age like end of their 20s or something.

00:20:48 Isabelle

They will actually, umm, either leave the profession or reduce their hours the most.

00:20:55 Isabelle

So, for Flanders, that's a really big problem.

00:20:58 Isabelle

Because it means that the interpreters who are still interpreting and will keep on interpreting, they won't be there anymore in 10 years’ time. [Tim: Mmm]

00:21:08 Isabelle

They’ll retire.

00:21:09 Isabelle

And there is no younger interpreters who can maintain a long period of activity coming in or staying in the profession, and this has to do with the fact that these are young people who probably want to buy a house, start a family.

00:21:26 Isabelle

You don't want to be a sign language interpreter [Tim: Ahh] [Isabelle chuckling] when you want to buy a house and start a family in Flanders ‘cause you don't have that social and financial protection, security, stability.

00:21:38 Isabelle

What we do see is that people who reenter the profession or increase their hours are 40 plus. [Tim: Mmm]

00:21:47 Isabelle

The mortgage has been paid, the children has left, have left the house. [Tim chuckling]

00:21:52 Isabelle

It's interesting.

00:21:53 Isabelle

So, that, that female aspect really plays a role. And in Ireland it is clearly the, the self-employed model that in combination in Ireland to be honest that there is an actual shortage of interpreters.

00:22:10 Isabelle

Which is not really the case in Flanders.

00:22:12 Isabelle

In Flanders we would have in theory enough people qualified sign language interpreters, if everybody was actually doing the job... [laughs]

00:22:22 Isabelle

…to cover the demand. So, there's more than 400 people in Flanders who have a degree in sign language interpreting.

00:22:28 Isabelle

But we have only, like, around 180 who are actually working as an interpreter, and of them only 50 in full time capacity.

00:22:40 Tim

Oh.

00:22:41 Isabelle

So that says a lot about the working conditions and the unsustainability of the profession.

00:22:46 Isabelle

In Ireland there are 197 people for the whole island [both slightly chuckle] who have the degree.

00:22:54 Isabelle

So, there's a shortage there, and of those 197, only 121 are registered.

00:23:00 Isabelle

Of those, maybe 110 are actually working as interpreters.

00:23:05 Isabelle

And of those, only 55% in full time capacity so…

00:23:10 Isabelle

It's a very small cohort who are doing the work. So in, in, in Ireland we need more interpreters. That's clear.

00:23:18 Isabelle

And also, improvement of the sustainability of the profession.

00:23:22 Isabelle

In Flanders, I think we really need to look at the working conditions and how that can be arranged to make it more alluring for new people to come in, [Tim: Mm-hmm] but also to make sure that we don't have retention issues like we have at the moment. [Tim: Mmm]

00:23:40 Isabelle

Yeah, yeah. Completely different story, for instance in Denmark.

00:23:43 Isabelle

So, I know somebody is trying to do the same research in Denmark and I think they will have different results because they're… all the sign language interpreters are actually employed by agencies. [Tim: Mmm] So, they do have the employee status. It’s going to be very interesting to see what that means in terms of sustainability, yeah.

00:24:00 Tim

Yeah. Yeah, that's very similar here.

00:24:03 Isabelle

Mm-hmm

00:24:04 Tim

They have kind of a mix, but most interpreters here are employed by agencies like you said.

00:24:10 Tim

Did you find anything else about the profession that was also affecting the sustainability.

00:24:18 Isabelle

Loads of things. [both laugh]

00:24:19 Tim

OK.

00:24:22 Isabelle

It was actually quite a thorough survey and research. I think, like the research reports, like for both of them are about 40 pages. [Tim: Aha]

00:24:33 Isabelle

But I…

00:24:34 Isabelle

I actually just wanna share what positively surprised me and made me as a sign language interpreter, like, very happy. [Tim: Yeah]

00:24:42 Isabelle

For both researches, like in both reports, when you ask people why they increase their hours, so maybe somebody starts out as a part-time sign language interpreter and then they go to, OK, I'll work 70% or I'll go full time…umm…

00:25:01 Isabelle

…for both countries…

00:25:04 Isabelle

I think for Belgium it was the number one reason and for Ireland it was the second reason is…

00:25:12 Isabelle

“I'm proud to be an interpreter.”

00:25:14 Tim

Wow.

00:25:15 Isabelle

And then if you look like, the main ten reasons, eight of them are what we call intrinsic motivators.

00:25:23 Isabelle

So, it's love for the job. [Tim: Mmm]

00:25:27 Isabelle

Enjoying what you're doing, being good at what you’re doing.

00:25:31 Isabelle

Feeling valued.

00:25:32 Isabelle

Feeling appreciated.

00:25:34 Isabelle

Being proud, all those things. So, interpreters keep doing the job because they love it.

00:25:42 Isabelle

And sometimes we take all the bad with it [Tim: Mm-hmm] and keep going.

00:25:48 Isabelle

But there were also issues of, like people said, like, “Yeah. But then I got a burnout.” [Tim: Mm-hmm] Or “I have… I’m totally stressed.” “And I feel so dedicated.”

00:25:57 Tim

Yeah.

00:25:58 Isabelle

But it doesn't work in reality.

00:26:01 Isabelle

So, I've started to come to think of sign language interpreters as somewhat like people who have a certain vocation and a very like a dedication to their, their profession. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:26:13 Isabelle

Which you could compare to probably teachers and like more of those types of, of professions, which again can be linked to the female dominated side of the profession, I guess.

00:26:25 Isabelle

But I was kind of happy to see that.

00:26:27 Isabelle

So, one of the recommendations is also to kind of invest a little bit more in campaigns that spotlight those positive values of interpreting. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:26:37 Isabelle

I'm not always focusing on the bad, but okay so people are proud to be interpreters.

00:26:42 Isabelle

They love the flexibility they have as an interpreter to make up your own schedule. [Tim: Mm-hmm] Again for a female dominated profession that is quite valuable because you can just plan your assignments around all the other things you have to do. So yeah.

00:26:57 Isabelle

A lot of the things that would need changing are also out of control of the interpreter themselves.

00:27:04 Isabelle

These are decisions that are made for us, so there is work to do there for policy makers.

00:27:11 Tim

Yeah. Could any of it be changed through how we're trained?

00:27:15 Isabelle

Some of it. So, I found in both researches again that most interpreters, when they graduated and entered the field, did not feel prepared. [Tim: Mmm]

00:27:26 Isabelle

Which means that that transition phase comes with a lot of stress.

00:27:30 Tim

Yeah.

00:27:31 Isabelle

Which, like knowing for myself, it's a stress you don't shake off easily.

00:27:36 Isabelle

It's not when after two or three years, you kind of have figured it out that you feel you're settled, there’s always that uneasiness.

00:27:44 Isabelle

So, I do think that interpreting training programs can focus or should focus a little bit more on other competencies than just the core competency of language and interpreting. I also think we need to start understanding that the job of an interpreter is much more than what you do within that assignment.

00:28:07 Isabelle

We tend to overlook that. Also in, in training like we, we tend to forget that it also means doing your preparation doing your admin, [both laugh] being an accountant sometimes, being able to schedule, manage your time. And these are competencies that we should train.

00:28:24 Isabelle

It's not just about when you enter that room or that setting, and you work between these languages in this interaction, and when you leave, that's not when your job starts and stops. [Tim: Mm-hmm]

00:28:38 Isabelle

We're paid for that part.

00:28:39 Isabelle

Like, in most countries, we're not paid for the before and the after. [both slightly chuckle]

00:28:44 Isabelle

But we're also not very well trained for that.

00:28:46 Isabelle

So, I think interpreter training can probably adopt like a broader perspective on what does it mean to be an interpreter. [Tim: yeah]

00:28:56 Isabelle

But it also depends on how much time you have as an interpreting training program. Because I know like working here in Ireland you have two years [Tim: Mmm] to train them to become a simultaneous [chuckling] interpreter.

00:29:10 Tim

Yeah, and that's good compared to other countries even.

00:29:12 Isabelle

It is, but it doesn't leave a lot of space to include those extra competencies. When I look at Belgium, we have five years, so.

00:29:20 Tim

Yeah.

00:29:21 Isabelle

Much more we can do there, yeah.

00:29:23 Isabelle

So, again systemic issues. [Tim: Yeah]

00:29:26 Isabelle.

Yeah. Hmm.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:29:32 Tim

Isabelle gave us a lot to think about. A lot of intricate details and connections from linguistics to what makes our profession sustainable or not.

00:29:43 Tim

Some real answers, and now it's up to us.

00:29:47 Tim

But on the positive side, she mentions how proud we are to be interpreters.

00:29:53 Tim

How wonderful the work is for us, which takes us back to the title of this episode. I put a lot of meaning into the play on words from the proverb of “pride comes before a fall”.

00:30:08 Tim

But I connected it to what we were talking about today on whether or not our profession is sustainable.

00:30:14 Tim

I think we should put the fact that we love our jobs.

00:30:18 Tim

We have a passion, a proud passion for the profession. If I can use many P-words, there.

00:30:25 Tim

And that pride should be first and foremost in our minds, helping us to look at these stressors, the things that cause people to leave the profession or cause people to work less.

00:30:39 Tim

Being proud of what we do pushes us forward in our work, even when we have such difficulties or challenges, emotional, even trauma, that we have to deal with in other people's lives.

00:30:54 Tim

Our pride pushes us forward, keeps us going, but it's not sustainable because we need to refill our energy.

00:31:04 Tim

We need to have those gaps in our skills and gaps in our knowledge to be filled with something that can give us that push rather than just relying on our pride in our work. We need better working conditions.

00:31:20 Tim

We need to acknowledge that life happens and sometimes as an interpreter, we have to leave the profession for whatever reason, whether it's to raise a family, whether it’s for more income.

00:31:33 Tim

How can we alleviate these pressures, these stressors? And Isabelle gave us some wonderful ideas on, practical ideas, on how to achieve that.

00:31:44 Tim

Look at some of the alternatives, such as deaf professionals working in these institutions.

00:31:51 Tim

Which means we need less interpreters for those situations because communication can be direct that allows us as interpreters to work more in other areas, not feel the pressure of I've gotta take everything.

00:32:06 Tim

It also alleviates the pressure on the organization, the institution and the deaf community, knowing that they have these opportunities to use direct communication, which also builds awareness in the hearing community.

00:32:22 Tim

So, while we may have pride during this unsustainable current state that we're in, it's that pride that pushes us to look for alternatives and ways that we can push the profession forward and sustain it.

00:32:40 Tim

I look forward to next week finishing our conversation with Isabelle.

00:32:45 Tim

Until then, keep calm.

00:32:48 Tim

Keep interpreting with pride.

00:32:51 Tim

I'll see you next week. Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:33:30]