IW 134: Interview Sharon N-Solow Part 1: CIT - Cracking Open the Interpreter's Head

SHE's BAAaaaack! We had a "crackin'" good time!

Sharon Neumann-Solow shares her thoughts as she describes the 2024 CIT conference. We discuss the beginnings of CIT, the major stars of that generation, and some of the impacts CIT has had on the training of signed language interpreters in the U.S. and abroad.

[SECRET: Sharon has a new book! Check it out.]

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Transcript

IW 134: Interview Sharon N-Solow Part 1: CIT - Cracking Open the Interpreter's Head

Support the Podcast!

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS]

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:34 Tim

And now the quote of the day by American actor James Dean.

00:00:40 Tim

“Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today.”

00:00:47 Tim

Every moment is now, living the moment, being in the moment.

00:00:53 Tim

We've all heard it. The philosophy of not worrying about the future.

00:00:59 Tim

Not thinking about the past and dwelling there, but being here now gives us new meaning.

00:01:08 Tim

It definitely works for interpreters.

00:01:10 Tim

To be ready now, to be in the moment.

00:01:14 Tim

To understand what is happening right now. Today, we revisit a wonderful guest we've had in the past, Sharon Neumann Solow.

00:01:26 Tim

She describes to us her experience at the Conference of CIT, which is an organization known as the Conference of Interpreter Trainers.

00:01:37 Tim

We learn a little bit more about Sharon, about CIT, and how that impacts the sign language interpreter profession, especially in the US.

00:01:49 Tim

And we'll be talking in the next couple of episodes more about her impact…

00:01:55 Tim

That's Sharon's impact on our profession with a new book that she has coming out very soon.

00:02:04 Tim

So, let's meet Sharon again and feel the love, the laughter, the wisdom from an old friend. Let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:02:18 Tim

Well, here we are visiting someone we've already talked to on the podcast. We're here to find out what's happening now.

00:02:27 Tim

My guest is an educator, a mentor and an author, which we'll hear about later.

00:02:33 Tim

And she's a friend to many throughout the world. She is a pioneer from the sign language interpreting profession in the US, and has definitely sparked imagination, inspiration and excitement in our profession, so please welcome back to the podcast…

00:02:52 Tim

Sharon Neumann Solow.

00:02:54 Sharon

Hi, thank you.

00:02:55 Sharon

What a lovely introduction.

00:02:56 Sharon

Thank you.

00:02:57 Tim

Welcome, Sharon. Recently there was a conference in U.S. called CIT.

00:03:04 Tim

The organization is called the Conference of Interpreter Trainers.

00:03:09 Tim

I believe it was started around 1979 was the first conference, and of course probably started before then.

00:03:16 Tim

Can you explain to those of us who have never gone to this conference what is this conference about?

00:03:23 Tim

Who is it for and what impact is it making on the profession?

00:03:28 Sharon

The conference was…

00:03:32 Sharon

…born of a group of people who were in the Registry of Interpreters for the Deaf, RID in the US.

00:03:40 Sharon

Who were starting to do some training of interpreters, but we didn't have a lot of resources and connections with each other were sparse.

00:03:52 Sharon

Would meet at the RID Convention, for example.

00:03:56 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:03:57 Sharon

So, we decided to create a separate organization for educators and that was unfortunately, labeled Conference of Interpreter Trainers.

00:04:09 Sharon

Unfortunately, in the sense that we go to conferences regularly, but the group is not a conference, but oh well.

00:04:18 Sharon

So, our most recent conference or convention was very, very recently in Berkeley, CA and the organization has as its intent and mission and, and goals, to bring together people who teach interpretation.

00:04:38 Sharon

In our case, it's mostly… there are a few spoken language interpreters who are interested in this organization, but almost all of us are signed language interpreter educators.

00:04:50 Sharon

And some of those are from other countries as well.

00:04:54 Sharon

To bring us together, to help us share… In the early days, it was just to share what we were doing and what resources we had. It was a very spare time in our resource world, we had very little going on in terms of a library or a bibliography or any research or anything like that.

00:05:19 Sharon

It was very little. And so, CIT also has really fostered more research and additions to the resource pool.

00:05:32 Sharon

So that's been another piece of what they do.

00:05:36 Sharon

And I think networking has still remained one of the central foci, one of the central things we focus on in CIT, this conference that we just attended, it was astonishing how, how little anybody breathed. We just…

00:05:52 Sharon

…or ate or drank…

00:05:54 Sharon

We just talked to each other all the time.

00:05:57 Sharon

And talk, I mean by that we signed because the official language of CIT is American Sign Language.

00:06:06 Sharon

So, we just, people caught up personally and professionally, but over the years what we have found is that now we have easier access to one another.

00:06:18 Sharon

That I would say that’s a huge gift that the CIT has given us.

00:06:22 Tim

So, I want to go back to the beginning of the conference, conferences or conventions of CIT.

00:06:28 Tim

When you first got together normally at a conference, you would have, say, a keynote speaker.

00:06:33 Tim

You would have some presentations on research maybe, or on how to improve a certain skills. So you have a workshop on that. Those sorts of things, the new things that are happening.

00:06:44 Tim

How did that work with the first few conventions, since there really wasn't any research or, or resources at that time?

00:06:53 Sharon

They were so few people were… there were… We'd have, typically, had keynote and endnote speeches for each conference.

00:07:03 Sharon

I think we did all the way back at the beginning as well.

00:07:07 Sharon

Uh…

00:07:08 Sharon

And it was a very small group at the in the early stages and I would say the way it was organized is that people would come and share their wisdom.

00:07:23 Sharon

So, for example, some people were sharing research they had done or things they had learned regarding spoken language interpreting or cognitive processes or spoken language models.

00:07:41 Sharon

Very few, but some of the models that had come to us out of the spoken language field, but at that time we weren't very tuned into the spoken language field.

00:07:51 Sharon

Most of us, if you know it was a pretty, was a pretty rare thing that those things came up, however…

00:07:58 Sharon

What we did was a lot of workshops where we would sit down and share.

00:08:02 Sharon

I think we used to call them share shops.

00:08:04 Sharon

We would sit in a room.

00:08:07 Sharon

And we would all bring things we did, exercises we did, materials we used, and discuss how to approach the task.

00:08:17 Sharon

I think people were even then, you know, we're starting to…

00:08:22 Sharon

…try to become more objective, less subjective, but in the early days of education, interpreter education, I would say it was very common for the trainer to simply be operating off their opinion of best practices, not necessarily any kind of researched or evidence based best practices.

00:08:46 Tim

For me, that experiential discussion or conversation usually leads to questions.

00:08:53 Tim

Well, I see this.

00:08:55 Tim

Why do you see that?

00:08:56 Tim

And then you start coming to the why's and maybe what's behind it, which also leads people to think of new research questions and so forth.

00:09:03 Tim

Obviously, there's a place for, for that.

00:09:06 Sharon

Absolutely. I think that we had the early influence of the linguistics, uh, researchers who were very fascinated with the interpreting process and some of whom had come out of a background where they at least, maybe it wasn't their background, but they became interpreters or they were interpreters and they brought that academic perspective pretty early in the game. Now that I think of it.

00:09:35 Sharon

I remember Charlotte Baker Schenk, who was one of the authors of early ASL books by she and Dennis Cokely.

00:09:44 Sharon

And we were sitting in the lobby of the hotel or Conference Center, where some CIT conference was happening.

00:09:53 Sharon

And she said if I could crack your brain open and see what you do, that would make me so happy.

00:10:01 Sharon

And I thought, not me. [both chuckling]

00:10:04 Sharon

But I totally got it.

00:10:06 Sharon

We don’t...

00:10:06 Sharon

We… even now we, we struggle to understand the magic of what we do.

00:10:12 Sharon

But back then, we had very little to guide our thinking about what it was we were doing and why something was effective and something else less so.

00:10:23 Tim

I know we've had discussions before where we think about this is the way I would interpret something, but then you see someone else come up with some interpretation, some product that is amazingly good for this concept and I would not have thought of that.

00:10:40 Tim

That's where I think it's, it's hard to figure out why.

00:10:44 Tim

How did that person come to this conclusion of the concept? And I came at it a different way.

00:10:52 Tim

Is it my background or is it the way my brain works compared to their brain that we may never know that?

00:11:00 Tim

But that makes sense why you would want to crack open the head and take a look.

00:11:04 Sharon

Well, there's also the challenge that I would add is, is it the way you think?

00:11:09 Sharon

Is it the way I think?

00:11:11 Sharon

Is it the way we were taught?

00:11:13 Sharon

And that's the piece that the conference should, that CIT should and tries to look at is, are we teaching the most effective or among the most effective approaches to the task.

00:11:31 Sharon

I'm going to give you a weird example.

00:11:35 Sharon

I mentored a wonderful woman who is an interpreter and her training…

00:11:42 Sharon

In my opinion, really limited her at the beginning until she could change some serious habits because she had been taught something that's called the Gish method, which in theory it, it makes some sense.

00:11:58 Sharon

Know if you can't catch everything.

00:12:01 Sharon

Catch the big pieces.

00:12:02 Sharon

That's my very scientific description of the model.

00:12:06 Sharon

And she had habituated not giving any detail because she had been trained in this model according to her.

00:12:17 Sharon

I mean. I don't know what her real situation was.

00:12:19 Sharon

But it was a beautiful…

00:12:21 Sharon

In fact, I'm using one she, but this is actually been several people I've worked with.

00:12:27 Sharon

And as a result, she didn't have the habit of really striving to do every detail possible and that in my opinion a stellar interpreter is getting every single little thing in because we don't know what's little. We don't know what's important.

00:12:50 Sharon

And it's not our business to decide that in a way.

00:12:53 Sharon

I mean, of course we have to in our work have to kind of decide what's important. But I just mean.

00:12:59 Sharon

Her habit had become to discard anything that wasn't a primary point.

00:13:07 Sharon

So, there you go.

00:13:08 Sharon

That's not her thinking.

00:13:10 Sharon

Well, it is her thinking now, but her thinking was molded by her training. And so anyway, I wanted to add that that.

00:13:19 Sharon

Think that's the, that we would be fascinated to study too.

00:13:24 Tim

That's fascinating that you say that because I've also taught many of the models from Cokely, Gish, Colonomos, and so forth.

00:13:33 Tim

But I would never have thought that someone would take it to the point where, well.

00:13:36 Tim

Just go for the, the top layers, and always throw out the bottom. Huh…

00:13:42 Sharon

Yeah, I don't.

00:13:43 Sharon

I have to admit I don't mean that, that’s how she was taught. [Tim: right]

00:13:46 Sharon

I mean, that's what she took away. [Tim: hmm] That’s what she learned in her, you know, and learning and teaching don't always completely overlap.

00:13:56 Sharon

So, I don't know what she was taught. [Tim: yeah]

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:13:58 Tim

And what were you taught?

00:14:01 Tim

Were you taught to support others who support you?

00:14:04 Tim

Well, that's good because in the show notes, just click on Support the Show or Buy Me a Coffee.

00:14:10 Tim

Thank you.

00:14:11 Tim

Now let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:14:15 Tim

There's two things I want to get back to one just for posterity.

00:14:20 Tim

Can you remember some of the names of these first pioneers who were giving their wisdom, who were giving keynote or endnote speeches?

00:14:31 Sharon

Umm.

00:14:33 Sharon

I, I remember…

00:14:35 Sharon

Uh, I’ve forgotten the other person's name, but the two people who founded CIT were Anna Witter-Merithew, and I think a woman named Becky… [both chuckle]

00:14:47 Sharon

I don't remember her last name.

00:14:49 Sharon

But that's, that's a guess.

00:14:51 Sharon

But Anna…

00:14:52 Sharon

Anna Witter-Merithew, who is such an amazing leader in our field and a thought leader teacher.

00:15:00 Sharon

Anna, as my deepest, honest, deepest respect.

00:15:05 Sharon

So, she was one of the significant founders.

00:15:11 Sharon

I don't recall who did keynotes and endnotes back in those days.

00:15:16 Sharon

But I would honestly say we all did because we were a very small group. [both chuckling]

00:15:23 Sharon

And the people I can recall who were leaders from that time of educators were…

00:15:33 Sharon

…besides Anna, who was one significant one, Carol Patrie, Theresa Smith, Betty Colonomos, Dennis Cokely, The Ingrams…

00:15:47 Sharon

Whose first name(s) don't come to me. But they were a married couple who were both deaf-parented interpreters and interpreter educators.

00:15:56 Sharon

I think their name was Ingram and Bill Isham, I think was back in those days.

00:16:01 Sharon

But I'm not sure.

00:16:03 Sharon

Oh, there are so many. I'm leaving out, but I'm just trying to think who was way back then. 'cause other names are coming to my brain, [Tim: mm-hmm] but I think they were later cuz I'm looking at them in my mind and they're younger. [laughing]

00:16:17 Sharon

So, I think they were.

00:16:21 Sharon

Umm, huh?

00:16:22 Sharon

Gary Sanderson might have been in that generation.

00:16:29 Sharon

Oh, I know OH, LOU FANT!

00:16:31 Sharon

Oh my goodness, Lou Fant one of the absolutely most amazing educators and interpreters of, of all time.

00:16:41 Sharon

And Virginia Hughes? She was my mentor. And she was my first boss when we first…. when I first started working and taught me everything I know.

00:16:55 Sharon

But anyway, so that's a that's a very scattered list, and I apologize to anyone I haven't mentioned, but I guess.

00:17:05 Sharon

I'm remembering what I'm remembering I guess, but there you go. [both chuckle]

00:17:12 Tim

But you say it with confidence.

00:17:16 Tim

I wanted to say some of the names because I think it's important for us to remember those names when we can and record it for others to know.

00:17:24 Sharon

I agree.

00:17:26 Tim

I've heard many things about many of the names that you've mentioned throughout my career, but I've only met a few of those yourself included in that.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:17:39 Tim

So back to the conference.

00:17:40 Tim

How is it structured today?

00:17:42 Tim

Is it mainly research now and lectures or is there any hands-on or more of that sharing a share…?

00:17:51 Tim

Or share shops. I believe you called them.

00:17:53 Tim

I love that name, by the way.

00:17:55 Sharon

Yeah. Well, we don’t call them that anymore.

00:17:58 Sharon

I like that name too.

00:18:01 Sharon

The conference this last conference had a keynote and an endnote.

00:18:07 Sharon

I was fortunate and honored to be the one of the endnote presenters. My colleague Franklin Jones Jr was… the two of us presented together.

00:18:19 Sharon

And they made great effort at having as much diversity, equity, and inclusion as possible.

00:18:28 Sharon

And I think they accomplished a good amount of that. You know, it's never it never feels enough, but it was good. And the differences between Franklin and I were a gift because it gave me such an opportunity to see from a different perspective the things we were talking about.

00:18:49 Sharon

We are of different ages, different races, different sexual identities, different genders, different everything. So, but we're different and, and it was beautiful.

00:19:00 Sharon

The keynotes that structure remained, keynote, endnote.

00:19:04 Sharon

There were some plenary sessions, not a whole lot.

00:19:08 Sharon

And there were, uh,…

00:19:11 Sharon

Sessions that were smaller, broken out into smaller groups. But I think they just called them breakout sessions, but those breakout sessions took the form of classroom style, lecture style and workshop style.

00:19:26 Sharon

Most of them were lecture style. And then there are poster sessions where people typically they bring their research.

00:19:34 Sharon

It's not only research and they set up their posters in a single room and people can browse go from poster to poster and discuss the material individually with the researcher or the presenter.

00:19:50 Sharon

Most of the, most of the focus these days has been on research.

00:19:57 Sharon

And in the early days, it was on strategies and techniques and “how to”.

00:20:04 Sharon

And there, there wasn't a lot of that this conference per say, but I suspect there will be a little bit more coming up in the future because some people have mentioned they missed that. You know, they like sitting down and talking about approaches as well as the research.

00:20:20 Sharon

There's a tremendous number of people now who are doing research in the area of interpreter education because there are some graduate level courses now graduate level programs, degrees for interpreter educators.

00:20:38 Sharon

So, they have to do research to complete their degree, [Tim: mm-hmm] and they are also encouraged to continue to do research. So many, many young researchers are coming to the surface in CIT. I saw a lot of them in the poster session and then some in the meeting session in the breakout sessions.

00:21:04 Tim

So, kind of wrapping up CIT, maybe, I can't promise. [Sharon chuckles]

00:21:10 Tim

What was your feeling? Do you ever get nostalgic? Thinking…

00:21:15 Tim

Huh. We've come a long way.

00:21:18 Tim

Or is it just I'm here in the moment?

00:21:20 Tim

Do you think back and think about how much we've grown, how much we've matured as a profession? What was your feeling?

00:21:29 Sharon

That's an interesting question.

00:21:31 Sharon

I had a wonderful time at this conference.

00:21:35 Sharon

I really did.

00:21:36 Sharon

I enjoyed myself.

00:21:38 Sharon

And I had… not as much as I would have liked cause life is like that…

00:21:44 Sharon

But I had some really significant connections with people that I don't see very often.

00:21:52 Sharon

And for me, you know my personality and my life, and my, my, who I am is… when I go to another country and I come home, people ask me, you know, how… what I saw. And I'm like, “Uh… I saw Tim Curry.” [Tim chuckles]

00:22:07 Sharon

That's who I saw. I'm about people not about the places much.

00:22:13 Sharon

So, for me, that is the power of CIT is the opportunity to connect with people that I don't normally see or that people I do see.

00:22:22 Sharon

But you know it's, it was just delicious to spend time with these wonderful thinkers and people.

00:22:29 Sharon

I am very much [laughs] a person of the moment, as you can tell 'cause I can't remember anything from the earlier days. [Tim chuckles] I, I don't remember this very often about the previous CITs when I'm at the CIT conference.

00:22:45 Sharon

Other than when somebody else does, and then I'm delighted to share that, you know, they'll say remember when.

00:22:52 Sharon

And bottom line, I think the gift of CIT…

00:22:56 Sharon

I really hope anyone who's interested will come if they can make it. The gift of CIT is… I felt so stimulated and so intrigued.

00:23:07 Sharon

And some of the things that I learned were so helpful and some of them were so challenging to the way I thought before.

00:23:18 Sharon

All things I invite into my life with great joy.

00:23:21 Sharon

The capacity to think and think differently makes me very happy, and that was available there.

00:23:29 Sharon

It was also, as I say, it was everything the official language was American Sign Language.

00:23:38 Sharon

And I have always wondered.

00:23:40 Sharon

I still do.

00:23:41 Sharon

You know how.

00:23:42 Sharon

Do, do we think differently when we use one of our languages than when we use the other?

00:23:48 Sharon

Because when I used to teach at the university in Southern California, where I used to… Cal State University Northridge.

00:23:56 Sharon

My students said (some courses were in ASL, and some courses were in English, were taught in English), and my students said that my personality was different in each of those languages.

00:24:08 Sharon

So, I thought that was so interesting because I wouldn't have thought that.

00:24:12 Sharon

So, I didn't think that at CIT because the early CITs were in English.

00:24:18 Sharon

And then as we became more attuned to inclusion and all that, we moved over to ASL.

00:24:27 Sharon

And boy, what a difference!

00:24:28 Sharon

0h, one really interesting thing I shouldn't say this, but it's true.

00:24:32 Sharon

People were noisy.

00:24:33 Sharon

They weren't talking. [Tim chuckling]

00:24:35 Sharon

I don't mean using English.

00:24:37 Sharon

They were, you know, people who weren't aware that they were making noise.

00:24:42 Sharon

Were laughing and using their voices, you know, just making gestures with their voices or whatever.

00:24:51 Sharon

During lectures, you know, and so you're sitting there watching lectures, you're hearing.

00:24:55 Sharon

People in the back, “AAAHA HA HA HA!”

00:24:58 Sharon

And I found, I found that intriguing.

00:25:01 Sharon

I was like, oh, so in my feedback to the organizers, I said I think we have to have some kind of an explanation to the people who don't notice that they're making noise, to help the people who can hear to focus 'cause, it's really hard to focus when everybody's making noise.

00:25:22 Sharon

The other unbelievably… (why I'm mentioning this I don't know), but the cool thing was the exhibitors, the people who brought their wares to share or their programs to advertise. [Tim: mm-hmm] They were in the main room.

00:25:39 Sharon

So that you could actually sort of…

00:25:43 Sharon

You didn't have to go to some far place to see all their tables.

00:25:48 Sharon

You could just go to the back of the room or the side of the room.

00:25:51 Sharon

And they were very respectful.

00:25:54 Sharon

I think in general they didn't discuss things during a talk, but during the breaks you could just walk up to the table and talk to people.

00:26:03 Sharon

Was wonderful and many of the present-, many of the exhibitors are themselves interpreter educators. And so, for them what a gift that they could attend.

00:26:14 Sharon

You know, that they could see the lectures during the time when lectures were being provided.

00:26:19 Sharon

It was very nice.

00:26:20 Tim

OK. The last thing on CIT. I know at one time…

00:26:25 Tim

It may have been 20 years ago there was a movement to get interpreter training programs accredited.

00:26:36 Sharon

Yes.

00:26:36 Tim

Was that through CIT and is that still going or how did that develop?

00:26:42 Sharon

I'm not very, you know, I don't teach in an interpreter training program.

00:26:47 Sharon

And so, I'm not as familiar as some, but I think it's called CCIE, and it is a certification process and it is independent of CIT I believe, but I'm not sure.

00:27:04 Sharon

But I do know that really, it's very rigorous and it's not easy to become certified or accredited via that, that system.

00:27:15 Sharon

So, I think it's a beautiful thing and I know that the programs that I know of that have been accredited, I can see why they have been. [Tim: mm-hmm] You know, they're very, they're very polished and very dedicated to the work.

00:27:31 Tim

OK.

00:27:32 Tim

Well, that sounds like a really good outcome of CIT.

00:27:34 Sharon

Oh, it is definitely an outcropping of this collaboration among the educators, absolutely. [Tim: mm-hmm, yeah]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:27:49 Tim

It's always good to hear about the history of our profession and how it has impacted reality today, and even a little hint of what the future may bring with the next generation.

00:28:01 Tim

Let's talk about some of the main points from this episode that we should keep in mind.

00:28:06 Tim

Coming together as professionals, being able to share our wisdom helps us analyze the perceptions we have, the feelings we have, and start studying those to help us develop better, to help us communicate better with ourselves and each other.

00:28:25 Tim

That's how CIT started and that's how it has evolved. It now has a next generation of researchers, not just interpreters, but interpreter trainers, educators which influences all of us.

00:28:41 Tim

One of the more intriguing points in today's episode that Sharon mentioned was why do we interpret the way we do? Each of us have our own skill set, our own background.

00:28:55 Tim

And looking at how we are taught and even more deeper, what we learned from the teachings we were exposed to, what we took from there, what we latched on to, influences how we work, looking for those patterns of our work and understanding our own history can help us determine why we do the things we do.

00:29:18 Tim

For me, that can help us all determine how to improve our skills by knowing what has affected them.

00:29:26 Tim

We may never be able to look inside the brain of an interpreter and see everything that affects the interpretation work, the product, when we have one interpreter interpreting a concept one way and everyone else interpreting it another way.

00:29:43 Tim

But yet we all see the benefits of each one.

00:29:47 Tim

Many of them may be just as effective, but why?

00:29:51 Tim

Why do we do it differently? But understanding our own “why” and influences can help us understand the patterns that we create in our work that shows us if there's a habit that we need to change or improve on.

00:30:07 Tim

So, until next time, keep calm.

00:30:10 Tim

Keep cracking that interpretation.

00:30:13 Tim

I'll see you next week.

00:30:14 Tim

Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:30:52]