IW 119: Interview Gerdinand Wagenaar Part 4: Step Away. It's OK. We're in Deaf Hands Now

Three days to think of an answer?! Well, maybe not.

Gerry gives his final thoughts about respect, working modestly, humbly, as a Sign Language Interpreter. His travel wisdom and journey as a Dutch Sign Language interpreter is our gain. Many concepts to take to heart in this episode. Is our profession an industry? How do we expand our concept of respect? How do we wait in the wings as the true leading actors take charge?

Thanks, Gerry, for everything!

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Transcript

IW 119: Interview Gerdinand Wagenaar Part 4: Step Away. It’s OK. We’re in Deaf Hands Now

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS]

00:00:02 TIM

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:34 Tim

And now the quote of the day by our guest in the last few episodes, Gerry, Gerdinand Wagenaar from Holland.

00:00:46 Tim

“Wait until you're asked.”

00:00:50 Tim

And that goes along with the slogan that has been bandied around since the 1980s from various groups around the world.

00:00:59 Tim

“Nothing about us without us.”

00:01:02 Tim

There's so much in both of those quotes, and we'll get to that in this episode with Gerry. We also talked a little bit about what sign language interpreting has become. It's a pet peeve of Gerry’s and about respect, multilingualism, and how it's time to step back and let the Deaf lead.

00:01:27 Tim

It's all in this episode.

00:01:29 Tim

Let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:01:36 Tim

Next.

00:01:37 Tim

Pet peeve.

00:01:40 Gerry

Which, interpreting as an industry, I hear this, I see this mainly in the US, but as an industry, as a business, as a business model.

00:01:51 Tim

Yeah, industry. [Gerry: Yeah]

00:01:53 Tim

[sighs] OK.

00:01:56 Tim

Next word…

00:01:58 Tim

Heartbreaking.

00:02:01 Gerry

Heartbreaking. Umm. Yep…

00:02:05 Gerry

The misconceptions about inclusive education and how it impacts Deaf Ed.

00:02:11 Tim

Hmm. Yeah. Is that part of the education system in Holland now.

00:02:15 Gerry

Uh, yeah.

00:02:16 Gerry

Inclusive education is interpreted as physical integration rather than [what] Deaf Ed should look like to be educated in sign language with peers.

00:02:28 Tim

Yeah, that is in many places.

00:02:31 Gerry

Yep.

00:02:32 Tim

Yeah.

00:02:35 Tim

Next…

00:02:36 Tim

Respect.

00:02:39 Gerry

Yes.

00:02:41 Tim

Yes. OK, good. [laughing]

00:02:45 Gerry

Yeah, after so many years of interpreting, after meeting so many people from so many different walks of life, from so many nations and so many continents in the world.

00:02:56 Gerry

You end up with ample respect.

00:02:59 Gerry

Human diversity and role in your understanding of what respect means.

00:03:05 Gerry

And of course, the other side, like, what's happening in Venezuela this month. [Tim: hmm. Yeah] The dictator is claiming victory.

00:03:14 Gerry

Yeah. Respect for yourself.

00:03:17 Tim

OK.

00:03:18 Tim

And last…

00:03:19 Tim

CODA.

00:03:21 Gerry

Identity.

00:03:23 Gerry

Third world.

00:03:25 Tim

You're a third world country all into yourself.

00:03:27 Gerry

Yeah, with many others, not just by myself. That's growing up in a binary world, which is either hearing or Deaf.

00:03:36 Gerry

Finding CODAs an organization and finding other CODAs that have this fluid identity being Deaf in one space and hearing in another space.

00:03:47 Gerry

Very meaningful to me.

00:03:49 Tim

When did you first feel that?

00:03:53 Gerry

During our first CODA weekends in… must have been ‘87 or ’86, maybe, when the Dutch Sign Language interpreter training started. Like I said of the 34, 33 were CODAs, one was married to her Deaf husband. And CODA weekends in, in kind of informal adult educational center that we used to have in Holland. It was informal adult education. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:04:25 Gerry

Deaf people used to have a special sanction in north [area].

00:04:28 Gerry

And we went there for a CODA weekend and I think it was the first time we looked at each other and said, “Hey, wait… Deaf parents.” Then we start exchanging stories and, and my part of the deal is once a year, I want to go to a CODA conference.

00:04:42 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:04:44 Gerry

That's my time and space to be with my people.

00:04:48 Gerry

I remember first time I went was Alexandria, VA, and I walked in and I thought I was in the wrong place because I heard all these deaf voices.

00:04:58 Gerry

They weren’t deaf voices. They were CODAs using deaf voices.

00:05:04 Gerry

But anyway, that's…

00:05:06 Gerry

It's been helpful to me to create a space between not having to choose. Am I hearing? I'm not Deaf, biologically, but culturally, I'm not hearing either.

00:05:18 Gerry

Still, if I am sitting in my office and my wife is sitting, and is talking to me from the kitchen over there.

00:05:25 Gerry

I still have to walk to the kitchen to see her, to understand what she’s saying to me. [Tim chuckles]

00:05:31 Gerry

My wife starts talking to me, I missed her half, the first half of her sentence.

00:05:36 Gerry

Because there's no eye contact to initiate the conversation like, hey, Gertie.

00:05:41 Gerry

That will help. Like, “OK, you want my attention? You got my attention. Now I can listen to you.”

00:05:47 Gerry

If people start talking, I don't hear it. So, in this sense, I'm not hearing either. [chuckles] [Tim: Yeah] So CODAs as an organization… important to me.

00:05:58 Gerry

Now I’m with a non-CODA non-signing partner. It's becoming less important in a way ‘cause, yeah, life’s on a different track, but I spend a lot of time in CODA environments and I still enjoy them, whenever I can.

00:06:15 Tim

It's interesting. I don't know how it connects or where it is in the spectrum of this identity, with our daughter, when she first started acquiring language, [Gerry: mm-hmm] I was using ASL with her and English only. [Gerry: Yep] Her first lexical item was the sign for father or Daddy [Gerry: uh-huh] in American Sign Language.

00:06:40 Tim

And we were constantly around the deaf community here as she was growing up just before COVID hit, [Gerry: Yep] which disconnected her from that environment. [Gerry: uh-huh] But during that time she wouldn't listen to us or talk to us unless she had our eye contact. [Gerry: There we go. Yeah.]

00:06:59 Tim

And it, I mean it was very, I mean she would wave at… She even does that even today she'll wave at us. Give that deaf wave to get our attention first. Even though she may be talking.

00:07:09 Gerry

Yep. Is your wife Deaf? Hearing?

00:07:11 Tim

No she's, she's hearing, Czech Sign Language interpreter. She was using Czech and only with her as well as Czech Sign Language. [Gerry: Beautiful] She has the receptive skills, but she doesn't have the production…

00:07:22 Gerry

Makes sense.

00:07:23 Tim

…now, yeah, because it's been four years that she was without that connection, [Gerry: yep] but it's still there, and she's definitely a visual person.

00:07:31 Gerry

I just became a granddad, and we just gave the parents a, a book about 50 basic baby signs. [Tim: yeah] Definitely going to raise it with Spanish, Dutch, English, Dutch Sign Language.

00:07:38 Gerry

Yeah.

00:07:44 Tim

Yeah, I know he can handle it.

00:07:47 Gerry

Oh yeah, of course.

00:07:48 Tim

People were saying here, “Well…” and we're like, “Yeah, we're, we're going to continue doing this. It's, it's fine.” [Gerry: absolutely] She messes up some grammar.

00:07:56 Gerry

Yeah, it's a phase. With my ex-American wife, we have a daughter and she… by the time we divorced and she went back to the states, she was 5 1/2. But until then she been at three Deaflympics, she’d been at the Deaf Way 2.

00:08:11 Gerry

So, she was already three years old, I remember her saying, sitting in the back of the car, saying, “Ohh, poor grandmother she doesn't know Dutch, but I could speak English for her. And OPA, and OMA, they don't know English, but I could talk with my hands with them. So, it was Dutch, English, Dutch sign language, International sign. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:08:31 Gerry

Great communicator and she’s just turned out fine. [Tim: yeah]

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:08:36 Tim

You know, it's better to give than receive, so why not click on the Buy Me A Coffee link in the show notes and give generously to the podcast and receive interpreter conversations from around the world? Uh… no, no, it, it's better to give. Yes. So, give. Thank you. Let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:08:55 Tim

Because we've been talking about academia.

00:08:58 Gerry

Uh-huh.

00:08:59 Tim

And the problems that come with that, the professional definition, etc.

00:09:04 Gerry

Uh-huh.

00:09:04 Tim

What advice would you give to researchers or teachers of sign language interpreters?

00:09:11 Gerry

To encourage their students to find a way into the deaf community, make deaf friends and that’s basically it. Find a way into the deaf community and it's not easy. But it's the only way to go.

00:09:26 Gerry

And then…

00:09:26 Gerry

Wait ‘til you’re asked. [Tim: yeah]

00:09:29 Gerry

Apart from your training, and your qualifications, and your diplomas…

00:09:34 Gerry

Wait ‘til you’re asked.

00:09:38 Gerry

And there's the buzzword it seems to be you've got a network and…

00:09:42 Gerry

Maybe that's all true, but that's a whole difference to see Sign Language Interpreting as a market is not my discourse, though, that's a jargon that I'm not very familiar with.

00:09:53 Tim

Yeah. So what I hear you saying is it's not the deaf community or / the interpreting connected to the deaf community is not a market or a business focus it's, it's a, a relationship.

00:10:09 Gerry

Yeah.

00:10:10 Tim

Speaking to interpreters who are interpreting now. [Gerry: mm-hmm]

00:10:14 Tim

From your experience, worldwide, locally, and your life, what would you tell them about the profession now, how would you encourage them or what do you want them to remember?

00:10:31 Gerry

Oh, that's the question I could have thought about for days and come up with a good answer. Umm…

[ELEVATOR TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:10:39 Tim

Three days later. [JOKING]

[ELEVATOR TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:10:43 Gerry

Be as much as you can, part of the deaf community, you're where it's local, national, regional, global.

00:10:54 Gerry

Be humble.

00:10:57 Gerry

My wife just wrote a book for our grandson and it's beautiful. It's Trilingual. It’s in Spanish and Dutch and English…

00:11:06 Gerry

…with life advice. I wish I had it at hand, but I don't. So… umm…

00:11:13 Gerry

Be respectful of the community you work with.

00:11:16 Gerry

Don't approach it as a business.

00:11:19 Gerry

As a very personal advice get your administration in order, which is something I haven't managed to do after forty years.

00:11:29 Tim

[laughing] Your administration in order? Yeah, that's….uhhh…

00:11:34 Gerry

Hmm. And it's not a market. Don't push yourself. If you're part of the community and wait till you're asked, you have… you're entering a beautiful profession or you're in a beautiful profession. You have the luxury to say yes or no to jobs. Being wise.

00:11:49 Gerry

Don't overestimate yourself or underestimate yourself. Go for the challenges.

00:11:53 Tim

Hmm.

00:11:54 Gerry

We learn as much as you can on the way, and you meet beautiful people on the way and opportunities will come your way. [Tim: mm-hmm] But…

00:12:03 Gerry

Do it in a modest way. Be, be modest. Be humble.

00:12:07 Gerry

Opportunity will come.

00:12:09 Gerry

And that, I think goes from any…

00:12:11 Tim

That's good advice for anyone in or out of the interpreting community, being modest.

00:12:18 Gerry

Recognize opportunities and grab opportunities, but maybe not necessarily create them.

00:12:26 Gerry

Eh, when I wanted to marry my first wife, she was American and she was coming to Holland to visit me for my birthday.

00:12:33 Gerry

And at the moment she told me that on the phone. I happened to have the newspaper open and there was an advert that David Bowie was coming to Holland.

00:12:43 Gerry

Uh, she was….umm…

00:12:45 Gerry

…known for being a, an interpreter who enjoyed interpreting rock concerts.

00:12:51 Gerry

So, I ran to the post office, bought ten tickets, gave five to deaf friends, gave five to European Lobbyists that were in the European scene lobbying for recognition of sign language. I bought ten tickets, then called the company and said, “I have a problem. I’ve been booked by five deaf people who are going to the David Bowie concert, but I need access to the set list and I need lights and they need to have a proper space in the front.” [Tim laughing]

00:13:23 Gerry

Long story short, five hours before the concert we got finally to go ahead after a very long back and forth between record company, Bowie Management in London, and the tour manager.

00:13:34 Gerry

Five hours before we got the go ahead to go through the artists’ entrance.

00:13:39 Gerry

And we interpreted the Bowie concert. That’s something I was pioneering, it was groundbreaking. We used it to create publici- I used it to create publicity about the importance of sign language recognition and accessibility. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:13:55 Gerry

Now that's totally politically incorrect. It couldn't be done now. [Tim: yeah] Now it’s seen as interpreters trying to grab attention to themselves, which is not my intention at all at that time. [Tim: hmm] It says something about how the profession has changed from…

00:14:13 Gerry

And now they're so... so many more deaf professionals, so many deaf capable-leaders.

00:14:22 Gerry

And deaf people demanding access rather than interpreters needing to create accessibility.

00:14:29 Gerry

So, I think that's the big challenge nowadays.

00:14:33 Gerry

But I think the ball is back in the hands of the deaf community where it’s needed for accessibility discourse. [Tim: Yeah]

00:14:42 Gerry

Abused- no, not abused. Used in those days. It was used to create access where there wasn’t.

00:14:49 Gerry

But nowadays it's time for us interpreters to step back.

00:14:52 Tim

Yeah, this has been really nice. It's time for us to step back and let the listeners digest all of this.

00:15:00 Tim

Well, Gerry, thank you very much for being here. It's been a pleasure getting to know you better and I hope to do even more so in the years to come.

00:15:10 Gerry

Yeah. Looking forward to meeting you in person. I've, we have good friends in Prague.

00:15:14 Tim

That sounds great.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:15:21 Tim

Gerry has given us so much to think about over the past episodes. Today is no exception. Let's start with a few of the points, in no particular order. First, being multilingual, our identity is connected to our culture, which is intertwined with the languages that we know.

00:15:40 Tim

That identity affects how we communicate, how we have relationships and how we serve the communities that we're working within.

00:15:50 Tim

It also gives us a healthy respect of different cultures of different ways of communicating. Gerry’s vast experience of travel throughout the world has given him a new perspective on what respect means. Seeing the diversity of views, of language, of communication styles, the cultural traditions. So many things can affect us and biases, paaarejudices don't always go away. But understanding in this vast sea of confusion that we call life becomes easier and easier the more we know, the more we learn from each other.

00:16:33 Tim

And that connects to why Gerry gives us certain points to remember as interpreters. One, be a part of the deaf community that we serve as much as we can, be modest, respectful.

00:16:47 Tim

And if you're going to do something or want to do something for the deaf community or with the deaf community, wait until you're asked. In the long before time, interpreters would sometimes take advantage of opportunities. Use them to create awareness and understanding between the worlds that they were stepping between all with good intentions.

00:17:12 Tim

But today, the world has changed the deaf community, as he said, has become more and more of the leader. It is their community. They speak for themselves, even without us.

00:17:27 Tim

So, remember when you're thinking of this business model, this industry standard, it's not really a business, it's a service, have some respect, step back and let the deaf lead. They have the power, now. Let them use it.

00:17:46 Tim

In the past, interpreters used it. Now using it can lead to abusing it. So, let's be careful as we step away and continue our journey as sign language interpreters around the world.

00:18:00 Tim

Thank you again, Gerry, for all your thoughts and your stories. Until next time, keep calm. Keep waiting to interpret. I'll see you next week. Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:18:49]