IW 118: Interview Gerdinand Wagenaar Part 3: The Meaning of Life-Diminishing Confusion

Conflict of interest? Never! ...oh wait. Ouch.

Gerry takes us back to Holland and how the profession has become a bit different than when he started. We look at interpreting from the point of view of production goals, conflicts of interest within one situation, and more.

Listen to understand some of the confusing sides of interpreting.

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Transcript

IW 118: Interview Gerdinand Wagenaar Part 3: The Meaning of Life-Diminishing Confusion

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS]

00:00:02 TIM

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:35 Tim

And now the quote of the day. I have two. The first by Winston Churchill,

00:00:42 Tim

“True genius resides in the capacity for evaluation of uncertain, hazardous and conflicting information.”

00:00:52 Tim

And the second by Albert Einstein,

00:00:56 Tim

“If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.”

00:01:02 Tim

As interpreters, we often get conflicting information, uncertain information, and it is our interpreting capacity to evaluate this to understand it in a simple way so that we can then produce the same in the target language.

00:01:22 Tim

As the title says, the Meaning of an Interpreter's Life Is Diminishing Confusion. Getting to the heart of the content, the meaning, the clarity of understanding of what people are trying to communicate. Many are bad communicators or bad speakers. And yet…

00:01:42 Tim

They are expressing themselves the best they can, but that's where our job comes in is to understand that. I think that takes true genius. In today's episode, we step back into the world of the CODA interpreter from Holland, Gerry.

00:01:59 Tim

He gives us some stories about ethical dilemmas, how the profession has changed over time from those handful of CODAs that started to what it is today.

00:02:12 Tim

And we discuss so much more. So, let's dive back into where we left off from last episode and find out what did Gerry do in that ethical dilemma.

00:02:27 Tim

So, let's back it up a little bit and get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:02:36 Tim

What is your approach or your philosophy to ethics in interpreting?

00:02:42 Gerry

Human.

00:02:43 Tim

Human?

00:02:44 Gerry

Being human.

00:02:45 Tim

As opposed to…?

00:02:47 Gerry

As opposed to using the Code of Ethics as an alibi to not be the things you should do.

00:02:52 Tim

Yeah, not having that crutch. Hmm. So, give me an example. You thought really hard about this and came up with the answer quite quickly. Being human compared to using the Code of ethics as an excuse.

00:03:09 Gerry

I’m going to go to the bathroom smoke a cigarette. [Tim laughing]

00:03:14 Gerry

Gonna think about the answer...

00:03:16 Gerry

And a couple of minutes. I'll be back. [Tim still laughing]

00:03:18 Tim

OK, sounds great.

[Elevator bell, Elevator music, Elevator bell]

00:03:33 Gerry

What's the question again? [Tim chuckles] Ehmm, I've stopped working in legal settings after I interpreted for a, a young deaf guy, [Tim: mm-hmm] both for police interrogation and his lawyer…

00:03:49 Gerry

And the, how do you sasay this in English? …the, the legal system that tried to prosecute him, and in the court case.

00:03:56 Tim

Mm -hmm.

00:03:59 Gerry

He was sentenced to evaluate… psychiatric evaluation.

00:04:04 Gerry

And…

00:04:06 Gerry

It was in the clinic where he was on his own with a group of hearing…

00:04:10 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:04:11 Gerry

And I was interpreting the psychiatric evaluations as well.

00:04:14 Gerry

And they had a problem because they couldn't assess his interaction in the group.

00:04:21 Gerry

So, I offered, “You have social evenings. I can come in the evening.”

00:04:26 Gerry

This is very early on in my interpreter career. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:04:31 Gerry

And of course, the group dynamics were already set. So, he, he, he sat on his own with me and the rest were playing billiards, table tennis, and he confessed to me like, “Hey, (psst) I like you. You're a good interpreter. They trust you. Hey, they caught me for this and this, but they don't know about this.” [Tim: ahhh]

00:04:51 Gerry

And he came up with a whole list of other things he had done.

00:04:55 Gerry

The only solution I thought of was to call a colleague abroad in the UK, actually, [Tim: yeah] that I knew had experience in legal settings, etcetera, and [Tim: mm-hmm] explained to her that I have this information now. I don't know what to do with it.

00:05:12 Gerry

I can't go anywhere but to you because you're out of the community here and the whole, everybody will know what I’m talking about. [Tim: Yeah] It's the moment where I decided I'm not gonna work in legal settings anymore, especially not in all those different roles. [Tim: Yeah] I went to the UK and did some research and then decided as interpreters we should only work for one part of the legal system. [Tim: Yeah]

00:05:38 Gerry

Which may be good or bad, but this was the case where I really bumped into having access to information, that I didn't know where to go to. [Tim: yeah]

00:05:51 Gerry

I couldn't handle....

00:05:53 Gerry

I handled it by not telling the professionals [laughing] what I know.

00:05:58 Gerry

I handled it [Tim: mm-hmm] but…

00:06:01 Gerry

…you know, it was a tough one. [Tim: Yeah, yeah]

00:06:04 Tim

It's always hard when, when they tell you something that we shouldn't know, that affects the whole situation. Yeah. How do you handle that? Especially when you're in that situation. It's local and you know, you can't talk to anyone else because everyone will know.

00:06:21 Gerry

Well, I was lucky I had the, I had a colleague abroad that could call and confide in.

00:06:26 Tim

Yeah, yeah.

00:06:27 Gerry

Yeap.

00:06:28 Tim

One solution would have been to if it's legal setting you only do one part of it and not the other parts. But like you say, that means that the next part, they won't know what's already happened, so it's harder for them to interpret [Gerry: Absolutely] in the, in the best way.

00:06:44 Gerry

And I did feel for this guy, and up until this moment in the whole legal process, I thought he was kind of victimized by this system, including the Deaf school that used this particular case of widely publicized to create a special service for deaf criminals.

00:07:03 Gerry

So, it was very layered, and very, and I felt, I felt for this guy.

00:07:10 Gerry

And I thought he was too innocent to be put in a situation like this.

00:07:15 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:07:16 Gerry

Until… [both chuckling]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:07:23 Tim

So, when you started your career. It was through, and maybe by the deaf community and their needs and how they're establishing themselves with the Deaf Club etcetera. [Gerry: yep]

00:07:35 Tim

How was their relationship with the interpreting community at that time compared to the deaf community’s relationship with the interpreting profession now and why?

00:07:46 Gerry

I think the term professional has become to mean very different things in the eyes of the deaf community and in the eyes of the interpreting community.

00:07:58 Tim

Hmm.

00:08:00 Gerry

Of the 34 first interpreters in Holland, 33 CODAs and number 34 was hearing raised with a deaf neighbor boy, which ..they… later married.

00:08:14 Gerry

So, [chuckles] [Tim: hmm] It was…

00:08:19 Gerry

We were part of the deaf community, and I think the whole discourse about professionalization has led to the system where professionalism is defined in the majority hearing culture term. [Tim: hmm] Therefore…

00:08:40 Gerry

Well, we used to be trained… Our first cohort was trained on the lower vocational educational level. [Tim: mm-hmm] We had a higher vocational educational level, and now it's academic.

00:08:54 Gerry

And that has led to [alienating]. The same, If I look now at the global trends, I see a similar…

00:09:04 Gerry

I’m trying to say this nicely. Uhh...

00:09:08 Gerry

I'm proud to be one of the first 20 World Federation of the Deaf/WASLI accredited interpretes because Deaf eyes were involved. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:09:17 Gerry

Now there's an alternative AIIC network of sign language interpreters.

00:09:24 Gerry

And AIIC is the International Association of Conference interpreters.

00:09:29 Tim

Yeah the A-I-I-C.

00:09:32 Gerry

AIIC, yeah. That basically...

00:09:35 Gerry

can…

00:09:37 Gerry

…make other people a member who they think are good, but there's no Deaf-eye involved. [Tim: Ah-huh]

00:09:43 Gerry

And I think there's a big risk…

00:09:46 Gerry

..having the deaf view the deaf voice removed from accreditation procedure. [Tim: yeah]

00:09:53 Gerry

And I'm afraid that it's unstoppable.

00:09:58 Gerry

‘Cause in the majority hearing society, professional is defined by the diploma and not by skills. And like a good friend of mine said, “There's people who can talk about interpreting. There's people who can philosophize about interpreting, and there's people who can interpret. They’re different skills.” [chuckles] [Tim: Yeah]

00:10:19 Gerry

And that same friend told me with this beautiful sentence that I'll never forget.

00:10:24 Gerry

Said that, “People can philosophize about our job, but you know, really interpreting is just storytelling.”

00:10:33 Gerry

It was like for me was the… E = mc2. [both chuckling]

00:10:38 Gerry

Interpreting is just storytelling. Listen to what the people want to tell and we tell it in a language that you know and master.

00:10:47 Gerry

That's all.

00:10:49 Gerry

No strategies, no other to... [both chuckle] involved. Interpreting is just storytelling.

00:10:57 Gerry

The re-telling.

00:10:58 Tim

And that viewpoint stretches from local level all the way up to global level. As far as the term of professionalism is different in the hearing community than in the deaf community for interpreting.

00:11:12 Tim

Yes? No?

00:11:15 Gerry

I can’t remember your question. [both laugh] [Tim: That’s OK.]

00:11:18 Gerry

No, of course, if you're working at the, the Human Rights Council at the UN and people have two minutes, speaking time each. And it’s blocked and there's a strict Chair who cuts out speakers. And people are coming with their pre-written statements.

00:11:35 Gerry

That they have to try and read out as much as possible, but it doesn't matter, because then it goes into the UN archive. It's been said. That's a totally different challenge. [Tim: Yeah] I'm working one-on-one and whichever level global or local challenges are different the, the, the context is different, the compactness is different. [Tim: hmm] You have to resort to strategic deletion rather than enabling the dialogue.

00:12:04 Gerry

So, in the, the forms of professionalism are very different. [Tim: hmm]

00:12:10 Tim

Because you've worked on all of these levels, and you've had the experience of being within the deaf community,

00:12:18 Tim

How do you handle those difficult situations and relax afterwards?

00:12:24 Gerry

Specify difficult situations. [chuckles] [Tim joins the laughter]

00:12:30 Gerry

There are, there are individually different situations, deaf clients you’ve known since childhood uh, has a very difficult personal episode in, in his or her life [Tim: mm-hmm] versus difficulty of working at the Human Rights Council at the UN in Geneva. They’re hugely different challenges.

00:12:51 Tim

Is one of them more exhausting?

00:12:53 Gerry

They’re exhausting in different ways where there's one element where you can work with a deaf individual, you know, maybe from childhood.

00:13:01 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:13:04 Gerry

And goes through a very different period in life, it’s a different challenge to detach from that after work. [Tim: yeah]

00:13:12 Gerry

It's very different from the challenge of working at the conference. [Tim: yeah]

00:13:17 Gerry

And you see all your colleagues preparing like, while you think, “Maybe I could wing this.” I know enough about this stuff to, to wing it. [Tim chuckling]

00:13:25 Gerry

And, and I'm…

00:13:27 Gerry

I'll probably be better interpreter without preparation than with, which I think hmm, not something many of my colleagues would agree with. [Tim laughing]

00:13:41 Tim

Yeah, yeah, many of us would understand that sometimes preparation makes us a little too nervous or puts us in a… on one direct path. We think this is the way it's going to be and we get ourselves stuck in that rut.

00:13:56 Tim

When it veers from what we think it is, and therefore preparation is actually not helping us.

00:14:02 Gerry

Occasionally it doesn't.

00:14:04 Tim

If you already know the person, kind of know the topic enough, maybe you don't need to worry as, as much.

00:14:09 Gerry

And in case you have, you’re confronted with an 18-page preparation document, read the first paragraph and conclusions.

00:14:17 Tim

Yeah, all the rest is just supporting those two things. [Gerry: Yeah]

00:14:22 Tim

Yeah. So, you know the goal, you know the outcome.

00:14:26 Gerry

And the methodology, yeah. [Tim: yeah]

00:14:28 Gerry

And for the numbers, just point at them.

00:14:32 Tim

Yeah. You just point to them. [both chuckling]

00:14:37 Tim

Uh-huh. [sighs]

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:14:38 Tim

A big thank you to everyone who shares this podcast with a colleague and friend. If you want to support the show even more, check out the show notes for links to Buy Me A Coffee because it's very embarrassing to fall asleep during an interview. Thank you.

00:14:54 Tim

Let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:14:55 Tim

OK, let's switch gears and let's do a little word association where I say a word or a phrase and you tell me the first thing that comes into your mind, whether it's a story, whether it's a word, whether it's a, a reaction. Ok?

00:15:10 Gerry

OH, this should be fun. [chuckles]

00:15:13 Tim

Yeah, this should be fun. [chuckles]

00:15:16 Tim

OK, so the first one is community.

00:15:21 Gerry

Community.

00:15:23 Gerry

Sense of belonging…

00:15:25 Gerry

Globally.

00:15:27 Tim

Sense of belonging… globally.

00:15:29 Gerry

Yep.

00:15:31 Tim

Second, comfort food.

00:15:35 Gerry

I think this should be the answer for any sign language interpreter in the world.

00:15:40 Gerry

I've been trying all my life to grow eight arms like an octopus, so my comfort food is octopus, octopussy, octopody.

00:15:50 Gerry

I wish we had eight arms. I could relax. We got two arms working, eight hours frantic moving around. [Tim: chuckles] Octopus.

00:16:00 Tim

Octopus. [Gerry: yes]

00:16:03 Tim

Hmmm. How is that prepared? Fried or?

00:16:06 Gerry

I haven't figured out the ideal details. Grilled, I don’t know… [both laugh] I've eaten them grilled, and then they're too dry.

00:16:14 Gerry

Cooked, they have to be done in a special and I, I hear you have to beat them up really well to soften the, the meat a bit. And then boiled is probably my preference.

00:16:25 Gerry

Pulpo al a gallega. That's my favorite. So it’s octopus [gestures]

00:16:30 Tim

Chopped up, uh-huh.

00:16:31 Gerry

On top of sliced potatoes, sliced baked potatoes with paprika on top.

00:16:38 Gerry

And the best, uh, virgin, extra virgin olive oil. Pulpo a la gallega.

00:16:44 Gerry

Comfort food.

00:16:47 Tim

Umm, I'll have to look that one up. We don't get many octopus here in the Czech Republic, so I'll have to travel for that. OK next…

00:16:57 Tim

Confusing.

00:16:59 Gerry

Life.

00:17:01 Tim

Life. It's always good for an interpreter. [Gerry chuckling]

00:17:05 Tim

Everything is confusing.

00:17:08 Gerry

Yeah. And go through it with other people who are trying to make sense of the confusion.

00:17:13 Gerry

And try to…

00:17:15 Gerry

Diminish the confusion.

00:17:19 Tim

The meaning of life, diminishing confusion. That's beautiful. [Gerry laughing]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:17:27 Tim

Next….

00:17:29 Tim

Pet peeve.

00:17:31 Gerry

Sign language interpreting as an [loud TONE blocking his words] I hear this, I see this mainly in the US but… Ehmm.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:17:43 Tim

Hmm. What is his pet peeve? He sees it mainly in the US. I guess we'll wait until the next episode to find out. Until then, let's talk about some of the insight that was pushed into this short episode. First, as interpreters, we need to understand how much we should do.

00:18:05 Tim

There are some situations that have conflicts of interest within the situation. Sometimes we are interpreting in a capacity that might conflict with a different part of the situation that we must still be impartial, and yet sometimes it will conflict with what we just did, ethically.

00:18:28 Tim

You can put us in a situation like Gerry had, and you can see how it affected him. He no longer does legal situations because of that. So as interpreters, we must be wary about what we accept and how we accept them. Look for those moments that might be conflicting. Those are places where a larger team of interpreters would be needed.

00:18:52 Tim

His insights from starting out as one of the list of CODA interpreters in Holland reminds us that our profession is now professional, but by whose definition? Professional can mean different things in different languages, different cultures.

00:19:11 Tim

But in this discussion, professional is usually defined by the hearing culture.

00:19:17 Tim

And we have been following that definition for decades. Maybe that's one of the reasons why we feel as though we have lost connection with the deaf community because a lot of our labels are definitions, our viewpoints are coming from the hearing majority. So, let's all look deeply at how we define ourselves, and what our true purpose is, meaning by who we serve.

00:19:44 Tim

So, the last two points I think we need to remember but not necessarily analyze. One, remember that some situations are not about the process and the accuracy, but it's about the production, the speed of the production because in the UN situation the goal was getting out as much information as possible for the record.

00:20:08 Tim

And sometimes that's the goal and we have to follow that.

00:20:12 Tim

And it does make it more difficult, a little more stressful. It's a different feeling than that dialogue experience.

00:20:20 Tim

And lastly, remember to prepare smartly, use the information you need in a way that gives you what you need in a concise, clear way. The goal of the speaker if you have preparation materials, a PowerPoint, look at the introductions, what is the title, and at the end, look at the conclusions. What are the summary points? Those are the main ideas that the speaker wants to get across that will help you immensely, especially if you have very short time.

00:20:54 Tim

Great ideas, good insight from Gerry. Can't wait till the last episode. Until then, keep calm. Keep interpreting the confusion. I'll see you next week. Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:21:46]