IW 117: Interview Gerdinand Wagenaar Part 2: CODAs are Both and Neither

Schrodinger's CODA are they in the hearing world or the Deaf world?

In today's episode, our CODA Dutch sign language interpreter friend shows us his view on sign language interpreter development through his CODA experience, history of Deaf international organizations, and so much more.

Use your knowledge of quantum physics to understand this episode's title.

LINKS mentioned:

• IW Community Discount until Dec 31, 11:59:59pm.
  • 10-50% OFF workshops, seminars. Earn CEUs, CPD, and professional development hours.
  • And much more.
• Sharon's new book! (Use promo code IWCurry for 10% Discount.)
  • Give a note to ask for a signed copy!

Transcript

IW 117: Interview Gerry Wagenaar Part 2: CODAs are Both and Neither

Support the Podcast!

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS]

00:00:02 TIM

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:35 Tim

And now the quotes of the day.

00:00:39 Tim

We have 3 by American television host and narrator Mike Rowe.

00:00:45 Tim

The first…

00:00:46 Tim

“Not all knowledge comes from college.”

00:00:51 Tim

Second…

00:00:52 Tim

“What you do, who you're with and how you feel about the world around you, is completely up to you.”

00:01:01 Tim

And lastly…

00:01:03 Tim

“Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.”

00:01:08 Tim

Today, we continue our conversation with Gerry from Holland. We take up where we left off last week…

00:01:16 Tim

With the question about how the development of interpreters has changed over the years from CODAs in a natural learning environment with the deaf community to today, and what is that difference.

00:01:30 Tim

We also touch upon how to reconnect with the deaf community and their needs and values in the world of professional sign language interpreters. Is it a problem with academia or what? And we touch on the identity of CODAs. And lastly, a taste of ethics.

00:01:49 Tim

If only we had a little salt, but that usually burns when there's wounds. Right. Let's listen to Gerry the CODA from Holland. Let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:02:04 Tim

So, you mentioned earlier about how CODA today kind of have a different journey than you did to get to, but I believe you're talking about IS interpreting in, in general. OK what is different today than compared to before?

00:02:22 Gerry

The short way of answering that I think would be to refer to speech that Gary Sanderson from the US held at the World Federation of the Deaf conference in Durban, South Africa, if i’m not wrong, called The Marginalization of CODAs Through the Academic sizing, Academizization, Yeah, [chuckles, struggling with the word]

00:02:45 Tim

Academa-zation?

00:02:48 Gerry

Yes.

00:02:49 Tim

Acad- something like that.

00:02:50 Gerry

…of Sign Language Interpreting. [Tim: aha] It's become rather than a grassroot-recruited cohort of people, uh, recruited by deaf community, or suggested by the deaf community who wanted to enter the field, it’s become an academic route.

00:03:05 Gerry

And I think international organizations efsli, and WASLI, very much promote Sign Language Interpreting to be at an academic level, which I understand.

00:03:20 Gerry

But it doesn't necessarily meet all the needs, I think, of the grassroots of deaf people and the deaf community. Interpreting’s changed a lot. When I grew up, there were deaf people in five, maybe six professions. [Tim: mm-hmm] And they, they were taught in Deaf schools and they, they could graduate there. And there were very few deaf individuals who made it into the mainstream labor market.

00:03:45 Gerry

By now there’s deaf professionals in all kinds of [chuckles] professions [Tim: mm-hmm] that need highly qualified interpreters.

00:03:54 Gerry

I understand that. There is this need for highly educated sign language interpreters, but there’s also this grassroots need that, I think is not necessarily met by the way interpreter training is right now. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:04:12 Gerry

And the way the interpreter is training set up now also blocks potentially very good interpreters who could work at a grassroots level maybe work the way up, from up there.

00:04:23 Gerry

I think that route is being blocked... [Tim: yeah]

00:04:26 Gerry

…by insisting on an academic training. [Tim: yeah]

00:04:31 Gerry

Yeah. And it saddens me.

00:04:33 Tim

Yeah, it is sad. Do you think that path is being promoted by the interpreting profession or… [Gerry: Yes]

00:04:42 Tim

…by the deaf community?

00:04:44 Gerry

Mainly by the interpreter profession. I think interpreting standards were set by the deaf community, initially. [Tim: mm-hmm] Temporarily I was so proud of this. [holds up certification card] [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:04:56 Gerry

[I was] temporarily certified by the National Association of the Deaf. I used it to flaunt my interpreter education and say, “Hey, look at this. I'm certified by the National Association of the Deaf, no higher authority than this.” And I think that. [Tim: Yeah] Ultimately it didn’t work, and I had to take the exam and the interpreter training.

00:05:16 Gerry

But… ehhmm…

00:05:17 Tim

It sounds like from my perspective, looking at your answer and what I see, many conferences are now focusing on academic papers, research. Many of the education programs for sign language interpreters in the US are also pushing for their students to become researchers as well, to become the next sign language interpreting educators because, you know, the old educators are retiring. We need a new group of teachers. That makes sense.

00:05:51 Tim

All of that together is giving more of a lens towards academia is important, professional level of education is important.

00:06:03 Tim

And maybe that has caused us to lose that connection with the deaf community, which is something that's still debated and discussed and argued about, I know in the US, and I see factions of that here in Europe as well. So, how, how do we fix that? What's your thought on how we [chuckles] change that?

00:06:25 Gerry

That is, I think, the most important question one can I ask at the moment.

00:06:29 Gerry

I just heard…

00:06:31 Gerry

But I'm not sure if it's true, but I heard that in London there's now a sign language interpreter training for L1 interpreter for interpreters that bring sign language as their first language. [Tim: mm-hmm] Maybe that's the way to make sure that there's also interpreters trained from the community that can work in the community.

00:06:55 Gerry

Possibly also at an academic level, [Tim: mm-hmm] that's not the question.

00:07:01 Tim

Where in this mix of discussion…

00:07:04 Gerry

Hmm.

00:07:05 Tim

…are deaf interpreters?

00:07:08 Gerry

I must say that my experience with deaf interpreters has mostly been on European and international level, and I think then we're discussing this specific kind of settings, [Tim: mm-hmm] European Commission, UN. On a local level, I think or national level, I think, deaf interpreters could play a major role…

00:07:28 Gerry

…also, in brokering between L2 interpreters [Tim: mm-hmm] who have quite large distance in some cases to the deaf community and real deaf people. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:07:43 Gerry

So, depending on what level you look at, I think there's a major role for deaf interpreters. It was a joy to be in, in Jeju last year, at the World’s Federation of the Deaf conference in South Korea. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:07:56 Gerry

All plenary sessions, all platform interpreting was done by deaf interpreters. You see the added value. You see the quality. [Tim: mm-hmm] I guess it depends on the level you look at. Is it local? I see there's a clear added value.

00:08:11 Gerry

In Holland, we just had this year, had the first three deaf interpreters certified. [Tim: mmm] …graduated from the same four-year bachelor training. [Tim: Yeah] It's, it's growing. [Tim: Yeah] I think it's a major role to be played.

00:08:27 Gerry

My professional group… [chuckles] I've tried to stay away from interpreter politics for a while, but I know that there's been, uh, a side… organization to efsli, deaf interpreters… [Tim: mm-hmm] …in efsli that was active, less active, and now I think it’s reactivated again. I’m not sure.

00:08:50 Gerry

If you look at the World Federation of the Deaf and WASLI's accredited interpreters’ list. There is around 50% deaf interpreters there. So, I think the trend is there and I think there's a major role for deaf people who are used to playing this brokering role like CODA, [Tim: yeah] to be accredited and paid for their work. [Tim: Yeah, exactly]

00:09:14 Tim

Could that help with the academic view that… to change back to grassroots in some way?

00:09:21 Gerry

I hope so, [Tim: well] unless the, the pressure is put on [chuckles] deaf interpreter still to go through the academic growth in order to be, to be paid.

00:09:30 Gerry

No? [Tim: yeah]

00:09:31 Gerry

This all informal and brokering by deaf people that has been going on for centuries, has been this brokering going on for centuries by CODA. [Tim: mm-hmm] If the same pressures to the deaf interpreters as it is on CODA or hearing interpreters, to be academically accredited, we run into the same problem sooner or later. [Tim: Yeah] But it'll add some quality to it.

00:09:55 Tim

Do you think the CODA organizations could help in some way?

00:10:00 Gerry

Not necessarily. For me, I, I'm a proud CODA. I went to many international CODA conferences and for me it was very helpful to me and very unique settings. [Tim: mm-hmm] I could look at everyone in the room and say all of you have deaf parents. I can identify or to not to identify with you at all. [Tim: mm-hmm] But where I could look in the mirror in 400, 500 mirrors.

00:10:26 Gerry

Something that deaf people kind of take for granted, that hearing people don’t even think about it. But, um, the CODA organizations can help or should help, um… 

00:10:38 Gerry

…I don't know, other than creating times and spaces for CODAs to meet other CODAs and then build the CODA identity. That's not either hearing or Deaf. There's a third world. [chuckles] [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:10:52 Gerry

Where you can… ummm…

00:10:55 Gerry

I'm running out of words Tim.

00:10:56 Tim

It's OK. [laughing]

00:10:57 Gerry

Di-, dicho-, dichotomous?, I think is the word I’m thinking of.

00:11:00 Gerry

Is that even English?

00:11:03 Tim

Say it again.

00:11:04 Gerry

Dichotomous.

00:11:06 Gerry

No.

00:11:07 Tim

A dichotomy?

00:11:08 Gerry

Yeah, it's NOT a dichotomy. I was raised in believing there was a Hearing World and the Deaf World.

00:11:14 Gerry

And so, this CODA organization could be a place, where, OK. It's not ‘you're either hearing or Deaf.’ NO. There's a place where it can be both and neither. [Tim: yeah] It's like, I live in Holland, so, near, close to the North Sea. So, we have high tide and low tide.

00:11:30 Gerry

There's a strip where during the low tide it is land, during high tide, it's sea. Now, what do you call it? Is it land or sea? It's both and neither and it's one perpetually becoming the other. [Tim: Yeah]

00:11:44 Gerry

So that's how I see CODAs as an organization.

00:11:48 Tim

Hmm.

00:11:49 Gerry

But not all CODAs are interpreters wanna be interpreters, so there’s no role for CODA as an organization to encourage CODAs to become interpreters.

00:11:58 Tim

Yeah.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:12:01 Tim

Hey, if you feel like talking now, why not tell a friend about the podcast? That's right. Share the podcast with a colleague or friend and spread the passion of our sign language interpreting profession. Thank you. Now let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:12:20 Tim

So, coming from your national interpreting experience to international and meeting interpreters from other countries, what were your first impressions? Did you feel like, “Ohh yeah, we're the same or wow, that's different.” Or what were your impressions?

00:12:36 Gerry

My first memories of meeting interpreters from other countries were at the European Union of the Deaf.

00:12:43 Gerry

In those days it was called the European Community Regional Secretariat to the World Federation of the Deaf. [Tim: ufff, OK] During those annual assemblies, annual general assemblies…

00:12:55 Gerry

There used to be, and so all European Union, so there were only 12 or 15 countries. So there were two delegates from 12 or 15 countries sitting the outer circle and in the inner circle would be interpreters.

00:13:09 Gerry

For every one Dutch interpreters, Greek interpreters… We would sit in the inner circle and…

00:13:16 Gerry

The Swedes were… always came with three [interpreters]. They were rich, they could afford to have three interpreters. [Tim laughing]

00:13:22 Gerry

So, you have an outside circle, let's say 25 deaf people and an inner circle around 25 interpreters.

00:13:30 Gerry

That was my first memory.

00:13:33 Gerry

I'm talking 1985, ’86, ’87, so most were CODA. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:13:39 Gerry

So yes, in the evenings we would hang out and enjoy. But very soon after that, after a couple years deaf people started realizing that, “Wait, this is not working.”

00:13:51 Gerry

National sign languages into broken English into interpreters whose first language is not English.

00:13:58 Gerry

Deaf people understood it’s better without the interpreters in the middle, so they threw out all the interpreters after a couple of years and they started employing a team of two international sign interpreters.

00:14:12 Gerry

And of course you could see that…

00:14:16 Gerry

In many, let's say, northern countries, the UK, were very advanced interpreter educational program. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:14:24 Gerry

Holland didn’t and many other countries didn’t.

00:14:27 Gerry

So, you could see the different levels, being comfortable with working with English as an as working language, [Tim: mm-hmm] interpreter training background is varied a lot.

00:14:39 Gerry

I remember in 1987, first time I was… my first World conference, World Federation of the Deaf, in Finland, in Espoo, near Helsinki, I saw Bill Moody [Tim: mm-hmm] interpret a whole boring lecture about career advancements and advice services for deaf people translate into beautiful metaphors of people trying to climb a mountain with different tools.

00:15:07 Gerry

And that was the first time, I think, I really understood what interpreting was like, really letting go of the source message in the form of the source message [Tim: mm-hmm] and transforming it into a visual image that makes sense.

00:15:22 Tim

Wow. And were you working at that first conference, the WFD?

00:15:25 Gerry

I was working from English into Dutch Sign Lanaguage and vice versa, and no ambition whatsoever to become an IS interpreter ever in my life. But that was a moment I understood what interpreting is and can be.

00:15:40 Tim

Yeah, getting rid of that source language. It's key not just for IS, but for…

00:15:45 Gerry

ANY assignment. [Tim: Yeah] And for that learning a second sign language or being in touch with deaf people using other sign languages helps a lot to free you. [Tim: hmm]

00:15:58 Tim

It's kind of like me being dependent on finger spelling in the US when you don't know the sign, well, you just finger spell the word.

00:16:05 Tim

Maybe they'll know it and give you a sign, but you can't do that necessarily internationally.

00:16:10 Gerry

No.

00:16:10 Tim

You have to think outside the language box.

00:16:14 Gerry

Yes. And again hearing better your target audience. When working in IS many of the deaf professionals we work with, they know the… they master the English and the jargon as well, and they're comfortable with that. So it's a very occasion based way of [Tim: mm-hmm] choosing signs. [Tim: Yeah. Yeah, exactly]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:16:41 Tim

So do you have friends or even family that still don't know what you do as an interpreter?

00:16:49 Gerry

I'm currently with my first non-signing partner. [Tim: ah] She's an artist and I think she admires what I do, but doesn't fully understand and that's OK. [Tim: Yeah] I think that's interpreter is working locally, but I think there's very few people who really understand what we do.

00:17:09 Gerry

They admire it. Sometimes over admire it. [Tim: yeah]

00:17:13 Tim

What is your approach or your philosophy to ethics in Internet?

00:17:18 Gerry

OK.

00:17:19 Gerry

Human.

00:17:20 Tim

Human?

00:17:21 Gerry

Be human.

00:17:22 Tim

As opposed to…?

00:17:24 Gerry

As opposed to using the Code of Ethics as an alibi to not do the things you should do.

00:17:29 Tim

Yeah, not having that crutch, hmm. So, give me an example. You thought really hard about this and came up with the answer quite quickly. Being human compared to using the Code of ethics as an excuse.

00:17:46 Gerry

I’m going to go to the bathroom, [Tim laughing] smoke a cigarette, while I think about the answer and… couple of minutes, I'll be back.

00:17:56 Tim

[still laughing] OK, sounds great.

[ELEVATOR BELL, UPBEAT ELEVATOR MUSIC, ELEVATOR BELL]

00:18:10 Gerry

What's your question again? [Tim chuckles]

00:18:14 Gerry

Hmm, I've stopped working in legal settings after I interpreted for a, a young deaf guy, [Tim: mm-hmm] both for police interrogation, and his lawyer, and the, and how do you say it in English?...

00:18:29 Gerry

The…

00:18:30 Gerry

The legal system that tried to prosecute them.

00:18:33 Tim

Hmm.

00:18:34 Gerry

And in the court.

00:18:36 Gerry

He was sentenced to an evalu-, a psychiatric evaluation and that was in a clinic where he was on his own, with a group of hearing…

00:18:47 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:18:48 Gerry

And I was interpreting the psychiatric evaluations as well.

00:18:52 Gerry

And they had a problem because they couldn't assess his interaction in the group.

00:18:58 Gerry

So, I offered, “You have social evenings. I can come in evening.” This is very early on in my interpreter career. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:19:08 Gerry

And of course, the group dynamics were already set, so he, he, he sat on his own with me, and the rest were playing billiards, table tennis and he confessed to me like, “Hey, psst, I like you. You're a good interpreter. I can trust you. Hey, they caught me for this and this, but they don't know about this.” [Tim: ahhh]

00:19:28 Gerry

And he came up with a whole list of other things he had done.

00:19:32 Gerry

The only solution I thought of was…

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:19:41 Tim

Wow, what do you think the solution was? Do you tell the police? Do you tell the therapist? Do you tell him to tell the therapist? What do you think Gerry did? Well, that's something to think about for the next week. But now let's go over some wonderful points through a loooot of different stories that we learned today.

00:20:03 Tim

Are you a CODA? Do you feel connected to some of the points that Gerry made today?

00:20:09 Tim

The Academicization of CODAs. Now that word that we were having difficulty pronouncing because the word itself has become an academic word. Hmm, interesting. But it means the process of making something more scholarly or academic, giving the characteristics and the style of academics on something.

00:20:34 Tim

The point Gerry made was that right now interpreter training has become more focused on university level training, education, research. But he's not sure that that meets all the needs for a more localized community, interpreting part of our profession.

00:20:55 Tim

Originally CODAs became interpreters through the natural way, the natural path of being within the Deaf community, learning how to broker language, the differences, the nuances of meaning and context, and getting to the point. Nothing beats working with the deaf community and being in touch with the language in an interactive way, knowing that CODAs are both in the hearing world and both in the deaf world.

00:21:26 Tim

And yet they are in neither world and anyone time. If I relate that to physics, it's not the Schrodinger's cat, it is the Schrodinger's CODA. You never know which world they're in unless you observe them, and then you've changed them.

00:21:46 Tim

But if you don't observe them, they're both and neither.

00:21:50 Tim

Finally, my astrophysics degree has fully connected to interpreting. I feel like I have reached 42. And if you don't understand the “42” reference, I will give you a hint. Look at the title of last week's episode.

00:22:08 Tim

He gave us some ideas of how to get back to the grassroots of learning how to be an interpreter within the community, create specific training for L1 learners, including CODAs and deaf interpreters, students, that is. There needs to be a balance between the academic learning and the model of the deaf community perspective, the grassroots growth and development of interpreters.

00:22:37 Tim

And I'll leave you with the last point that we'll expand on next week when thinking about ethics dilemmas, decision making. We need to remember not to use the Code of ethics as an alibi to not do things you should do.

00:22:56 Tim

A lot to think about until next week. Until then, keep calm, keep interpreting things you should. I'll see you next week. Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:23:43]