IW 116: Interview Gerdinand Wagenaar Part 1: The Hitchhiker's Guide to Interpreting

Hitching a ride on the Interpreting Train! All Aboard!!

Our guest is Gerdinand Wagenaar from the Netherlands. He is a very experienced sign language interpreter who regals us with his journey as a CODA from brokering the languages to interpreting at the UN, EUD, EU parliament and of course always locally. We learn some history of the Deaf communities, their language, and the system of Dutch Sign Language interpreting. See if you can figure out the reason for the title of the episode this time.

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Transcript

IW 116: Interview Gerry Wagenaar Part 1: The Hitchhiker’s Guide to Interpreting

Support the Podcast!

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS]

00:00:02 TIM

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:33 Tim

And now the quote of the day, the first one by Douglas Adams from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

00:00:41 Tim

“He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream, and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.”

00:00:51 Tim

This quote connects with our new guest from the Netherlands.

00:00:55 Tim

Little did he know that his experience hitchhiking would help in his decision in becoming a sign language interpreter. [hmm] Our lives are definitely adventures, ones that we never know where they will turn up, where they will lead us and what quests and treasures, we will find.

00:01:18 Tim

Today we get some wisdom and insight from our guest’s history as a CODA growing up within the deaf Dutch communities.

00:01:28 Tim

The second quote is by Tim Curry around the year 2002. That's your clue for why this quote is here.

00:01:37 Tim

[whispering] “I see deaf people, and they're trying to tell me something.”

00:01:41 Tim

And now we come full circle, understanding that our lives as sign language interpreters each took different paths, but our guest today talks about his path and how other codas have similar paths. Or do they? Let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:02:04 Tim

Today we meet with someone that many people have seen but probably don't know a whole lot about. My guest is Gerdinand Wagenaar from The Netherlands, but we'll just call him Gerry today. He is a CODA. He has been working as an interpreter locally and internationally for over 40 years.

00:02:24 Tim

His experience ranges from international on the EU level, the UN level, and national level, regional level, everywhere. His one-on-one experience and his global experience is something that we get to hear a little bit about today. Let's welcome Gerry from The Netherlands to the podcast. Welcome, Gerry.

00:02:47 Gerry

Thank you, Tim.

00:02:48 Tim

I've met you a few times and I've seen you many times working, but I've never gotten to know who you are, so I'm really happy that you said yes to come and meet us today. But just like all interpreters, in order to know the person that we're working with, we need to know where they're from, so we understand the kind of the cultural connections, the languages that they use. So, let's talk about where you're from first.

00:03:15 Tim

The Netherlands. What is it about The Netherlands that makes you who you are?

00:03:20 Gerry

I don't know about the Netherlands as the country. I know about the Dutch Deaf Community as such. So, I was born and raised in a Deaf family in a neighborhood where there were quite a lot of deaf people.

00:03:35 Gerry

My parents went through protestant Deaf school and…

00:03:38 Gerry

In that, in those times I'm talking about mid-60s. Holland still had five Deaf schools.

00:03:44 Gerry

And…

00:03:45 Gerry

When you were catholic, you went to the Deaf school in the South. If you were Protestant, you went to a Deaf school in the West.

00:03:52 Gerry

If you didn't care, you went to Amsterdam or Rotterdam, uh, in the North also was non-religious.

00:04:00 Gerry

And when deaf people at that time left the school, the social worker at the school would assign them houses and look for jobs for them.

00:04:08 Gerry

And Dutch society is peculiar in a way.

00:04:12 Gerry

Especially in the 60s, you had the Catholic pillar, you had the Protestant pillar, you had socialist pillar.

00:04:20 Gerry

So, all the Protestants went to the Protestants went to the social housing company. And the social workers of the deaf school put deaf people in the social housing of that particular housing company.

00:04:31 Gerry

So, in the block where I live, the apartment block, we had deaf people living across us.

00:04:38 Gerry

So, my parents would never fight in the kitchen because their neighbors would see and then the whole deaf world [would know] [Tim chuckling] We had deaf people [both laughing] next door and there were like five or six deaf families in the neighborhood.

00:04:52 Gerry

So that's where I grew up. Then my parents moved to a satellite city which was being built. [Tim: mm-hmm] And my father created the Deaf Club… [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:05:01 Gerry

With a couple of friends because it was…

00:05:04 Gerry

Umm, (you, you're American - will laugh about this) because the old deaf club was too far away, was too much money for gasoline, it was 14 kilometers, less than 10 miles away. [Tim chuckles]

00:05:15 Gerry

They moved to a new city and since the old city local government subsidized the old Deaf club, they looked at me. I’d just finished high school and said you're going to come help us talk to the local government and get a subsidy, we want to run Deaf club.

00:05:31 Gerry

And that was my first kind of official interpreting job, I guess. [Tim: mm-hmm] And it was the old stand and pray. I ask the deaf people. “What do you want to tell? What do you want to ask? Wait, I'll tell him.” And I told him, “They want a deaf club because they're all coming from [town name] and they had a deaf club there and that local government subsidized it, so we want to run Deaf club.” I don't know what they did.

00:05:57 Gerry

And then I, I listened to the guy and he said, “Yeah, I think there's possibility.” I said, “Shhh! I'll tell them.” [Tim chuckling]

00:06:04 Gerry

Good ol’ language brokering, very natural way preceding interpreting.

00:06:11 Gerry

So, it was consecutive. I told people to shut up. [both slightly chuckle] But my father… they got to Deaf club. My father became the secretary. He wrote to the National Association of the Deaf and from return mail came two letters, one congratulations on Deaf club #14 in Holland and we offer cooperation.

00:06:31 Gerry

And the second one, that they’d just received subsidy from national governments to start a pilot project for interpreters for the Deaf.

00:06:40 Tim

Uh-huh.

00:06:42 Gerry

So, my father looked at me, he said, “found you a job.” [Tim chuckling] And I said, “Why? Wait! You’ve been unemployed yourself for many years. You've been declared unfit for work. And found me a job.” And [he shrugging], “umM”.

00:06:55 Gerry

Well, I went to that information meeting and we were about 50 people there.

00:07:01 Gerry

And 34 of us became the first interpreters. We got temporarily accredited by the National Deaf Association. And the others, maybe priests, or vicars, or ministers, or social workers, and those roles were, were felt to be uncombinable. [Tim: yeah] Which they are.

00:07:21 Tim

Yeah. You were 14 or 15?

00:07:23 Gerry

19 when the interpreter service started under the National Deaf Association.

00:07:27 Tim

Ahh. OK. Nineteen. Wow.

00:07:29 Gerry

Yeah, national when I was 18, 19. They opened the 1st of April 1984.

00:07:35 Tim

Yeah. How were you paid at that time?

00:07:38 Gerry

From this national government subsidy, the National Deaf Association was given a certain amount of money. I don’t know how much… 

00:07:44 Gerry

…for a three-year pilot for interpreters for the Deaf. [Tim: OK.]

00:07:47 Gerry

About 3 months after, I got a phone call and I, I was really number 34 on the list on the list for 34 interpreters.

00:07:53 Gerry

My last name “W” didn't help. My age, I was a baby. And so to experience all the others had way more experience. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:08:01 Gerry

But then I got a phone call from the interpreter agency, for well, or yeah, the interpreting department, I should say, of the National Deaf Association…

00:08:10 Gerry

…saying we got this man, the said a name. And I know, he was a good friend of my father, so I couldn’t say no. [both laughing]

00:08:19 Gerry

“We've got this man who's got a three-day computer course that he’s taking. Travel is paid. Accommodation is paid.” It's three days in the forest in a lovely part of the country, and I happened to have a girlfriend living there. And I used to hitchhike to her. So, I said, “OK, I'll go.” [Tim laughing] But he said, “The course is given in English.” [Tim: aha]

00:08:41 Gerry

“And all 33 interpreters have said no.” Well, if I said no, that would be the end of friendship between my father and him.

00:08:49 Gerry

Be… I, I didn't mind seeing my girlfriend without having to hitchhike, travel expenses paid. So, I said yes to the job. I arrived.

00:08:58 Tim

He had lied.

00:08:59 Gerry

They spoke Scottish, nothing English. [Tim chuckles]

00:09:02 Gerry

And worse, they spoke MS-DOS. [Tim: Oh yeah.] Thank God. First 10 minutes I interpreted 5%. Then the course book came out, that helped.

00:09:11 Gerry

And when he heard, “Now let's start with exercise…” Well, the deaf man was gone behind the desk. He turned on his computer and the monitor. He started typing away, and for half an hour, he looked up at me and said, “Hey. Oh sorry, I forgot you were here. [and umm…] I know you’re like your mother. You like birds. Go out in the forest. But I want you here for lunch to interpret because I want to talk to the other students.” [Tim laughing]

00:09:35 Gerry

That's what I did. Long story short, end of day one he’d finish the course book. Day two and three, I interpreted for him talking to other students.

00:09:45 Gerry

He wrote a very beautiful letter to the… he and his boss wrote a letter to The National Deaf Association, “Wagenaar’s son, interpreter English, perfect.” [Tim chuckling]

00:09:57 Gerry

Three months later, I got a call because the President of The National Deaf Association had a very important meeting in London.

00:10:04 Gerry

And he needed an interpreter, speak, and work for me. [Tim: Yeah] I got the job.

00:10:09 Gerry

And in London, that was…

00:10:13 Gerry

In retrospect, a very historical meeting, because that's the meeting where they decided to create what's now the European Union of the Deaf.

00:10:19 Tim

Hmm.

00:10:20 Gerry

And since then, well, long story short, there's my first major exposure to people using other sign languages to a group of deaf people trying to figure out each other signs because they were creating international sign. [Tim Yeah, yeah]

00:10:33 Gerry

I mean they, they were doing the Deaf thing. You meet people from other countries, and you try to figure out what you mean, a lot of clarification, not a lot of speed.

00:10:44 Gerry

But…

00:10:45 Gerry

Very focused on content and, [Tim: mm-hmm] and it happened.

00:10:49 Tim

Wow. So that was the beginning of the EUD, uh, at that time. [Gerry: Yep] Wow. Wow.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:10:55 Tim

Hey, if you feel like talking now, why not tell a friend about the podcast? That's right. Share the podcast with a colleague or friend and spread the passion of our sign language interpreting profession.

00:11:09 Tim

Thank you. Now let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:11:12 Tim

It sounds like your upbringing and your environment around a deaf community there, really gave you the experience you needed to do this. Was your English actually at a good level?

00:11:25 Gerry

In high school, uh, my passive English was really good. I understood English, but I’d never (other than through my hitchhiking experiences through Europe) I never met English speaking people. [Tim: ahh] It was really through my job. In a sense I’ve been extremely lucky.

00:11:42 Gerry

My trajectory has been working Dutch, Dutch Sign Language, that came natural - brokering - whole childhood.

00:11:51 Gerry

Ummm, to working from English into Dutch Sign Language. [Tim: mm-hmm] Very little bit from Dutch Sign Language into English, but that grew over the years. So then from Dutch Sign Language to English. Then during EUD board meetings from international sign to English for the note taker, who was the, the Secretary of the European Union of the Deaf couldn't watch international time and take, make the minutes at the same time.

00:12:18 Gerry

So, it was a very natural… receptive skills first, then expressive skills slowly, gradually building up both in English and in international sign, yeah. [Tim: yeah, hmm]

00:12:32 Gerry

And that, that's, I think, unfortunate for current day CODA.

00:12:36 Gerry

Now there's totally different routes. I think it's very hard nowadays to... be in the right time, right place, you know, meet the right folks…

00:12:45 Gerry

…to like, to have that kind of natural evolution working from national sign language and spoke.. national spoken language to English, International sign language, from national sign language into English, from international sign into English…

00:12:59 Gerry

And at last…

00:13:00 Gerry

from English to international sign. [Tim: yeah]

00:13:03 Gerry

Yep.

00:13:04 Tim

For me, I I notice that learning Czech Sign Language, a second signed language, from American Sign Language...

00:13:11 Gerry

Uh-huh.

00:13:11 Tim

…helped me immensely to understand IS and to go into that. And of course, English being native language for me [Gerry: yeah] helped also.

00:13:21 Tim

But knowing and meeting Deaf from other countries, feeling that connection, understanding, brokering between each other, trying to figure it out helped immensely. [Gerry: yeah]

00:13:32 Tim

That's better than, say, a course. [Gerry: It is.] Yeah, there's no comparison.

00:13:35 Gerry

Yes.

00:13:37 Gerry

If you want to jump to IS, there's no other way than to meet many Deaf people from different sign language families. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:13:44 Gerry

You were saying Czech Republic. I've worked a bit in Slovakia, and I remember after Czechoslovakia became two Republics. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:13:52 Gerry

Deaf communities had to appeal to the, you know, nationalism. Being Czech versus Slovakian. And they started enlarging, focusing on the differences between the sign, sign languages.

00:14:06 Gerry

And now there's a Czech Sign Language and Slovakian Sign Language. But still there is in this central Eastern European region there are Sign Language families, German, Czech, Slovak, [Tim: mm-hmm] Slovenian Sign Language, don’t seem very, very different. [Tim: right] And there's the Scandinavian Sign Language family. Then there’s BSL. [Tim laughing: There’s BSL.] [both still laughing]

00:14:33 Gerry

So, to meet deaf people from those different sign language families, within those families, signs seem to be more or less mutually intelligible, more easily than other sign language families. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:14:44 Gerry

So, there's no such thing as one IS. [Tim: right]

00:14:47 Gerry

At all!

00:14:48 Tim

No. It's like American Sign Language. It's one language, but definitely there are regional differences. There are signs that some use, some don't. Some of them place the signs differently. [Gerry: mm-hmm] But you get to know that because it's a living language, just like IS, is not a true language. We're matching our clients, from where they are, and who they are, and what's happening at that moment.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:15:17 Tim

So, what is the ratio between the deaf community and how many interpreters you have?

00:15:24 Gerry

Like in many countries, statistics are lacking, so you could go by the old WFD definition of 0.1% of the population is born Deaf. [Tim: yeah]

00:15:36 Gerry

There should be 17,000 deaf people, there's 500 or so, very roughly one in 35. [Tim: yeah]

00:15:46 Tim

So just want to be clear now in The Netherlands you only use Dutch Sign Language and, and Dutch.

00:15:56 Gerry

That's an interesting question because...

00:15:58 Gerry

In the whole oral century, there were five Deaf schools. So, of course [Tim: mm-hmm] there were regional variants. The three Western ones were more similar. Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague. The Groningen one goes all the way back to LSF, cause the founder of the Groningen with the northern Deaf school was trained by Abbé de l’Épée in France.

00:16:19 Gerry

At the southern Deaf School was strictly oral, but they had their own sign system [Tim: hmm] that was used until oralism ended.

00:16:32 Gerry

Now when the Dutch Deaf community asked the Dutch Government to recognize Dutch Sign Language the government seemed to be willing. Then some parents rose through the government and said, look, we have five different sign languages in Holland.

00:16:47 Gerry

And then the government said, “OK, we need standardized signed language and then…”

00:16:52 Gerry

So, money was made available for a standardization effort.

00:16:56 Gerry

And by now I think which makes sense for developing educational material in sign language for the five deaf schools. They don’t want to create five regional dialectical educational material.

00:17:11 Gerry

But that, that was a painful process because some signs got kicked out and then regional pride took over and there was… it creates some conflict. But right now, there's a nationally recognized one Dutch Sign Language, officially, with still regional variants in it. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:17:27 Tim

So, interpreters should still handle all of it in some way.

00:17:34 Gerry

They should. I've been working as an interpreter trainer for seven months, and one of the reasons why I quit as a trainer, was that I was forced to use only the standardized signs, [Tim: mmm] and I didn't know the standardized signs. I knew my regional dialect and I knew of other variants, not all of them. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:17:51 Gerry

I didn't know THE official, standardized… [Tim: Yeah] signs. [Tim chuckling]

00:17:58 Tim

It quickly got political then. [Gerry: mm-hmm]

00:18:01 Gerry

But by now I must say there's a whole generation of deaf kids that have gone through deaf education, with the trained in the national sign. So, it's, this standardized version is becoming more the norm. It's used on interpreted television news. [Tim: yeah]

00:18:17 Gerry

So, yeah.

00:18:18 Gerry

Slowly but surely, the old regional signs will become less, less weight.

00:18:24 Tim

Was this standardization supported or did it involve the deaf community?

00:18:30 Gerry

It did involve the Deaf community. [Tim: OK] The government created and subsidized, until now, the Dutch Lexicographical Institute collecting those signs, and there's Deaf… majority of deaf staff there, [Tim: mm-hmm] who conscientiously try to weigh out variance and select a… preferred sign.

00:18:55 Gerry

Because there may be two, two variants that have… Two regions, they have the same sign but in some region the sign is used that also has other meaning. And by now there's an online dictionary right extensive, thousands and thousands of signs, online, available. [Tim: Yeah] But it was painful process [both laughing] in the beginning.

00:19:16 Tim

I can imagine.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:19:21 Tim

This next question may touch on what you were saying a little bit about how things have changed and how CODAs now become interpreters. So my question first is, what is the education system for sign language interpreters and is there also an, a certification process for, for them?

00:19:44 Gerry

In Holland to become a sign interpreter it’s a four-year university, a bachelor program. [Tim: mm-hmm] So that's certification. We have uh,... [Tim: OK] bach- four-year bachelor program. And that diploma grants you access to the registry of interpreters like you have in the United [States]. [Tim: Yeah] And to be a member, to be on that register is a condition to be paid…

00:20:07 Gerry

…as an interpreter. Because in Holland there's one thing, I think it should explain that system that's really… I think quite unique.

00:20:18 Gerry

When you're Deaf in Holland, there are three settings for which it can get interpreting hours paid by the semi-government. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:20:25 Gerry

For private life 30 hours a year.

00:20:28 Gerry

It's… and you can use those 30 hours as you want for family meetings, weddings, funerals, go to see a doctor. and if you need more, you can apply for it. It's becoming harder and harder, but you can apply. The second is employment. I think it's currently 15% of your contract hours.

00:20:49 Gerry

And educational settings. In principle, no limit, so 100%.

00:20:55 Gerry

And that's all paid through taxpayers’ money through semi government. It’s…

00:21:02 Gerry

Uhh… And that's especially those 30 hours of private life are quite a luxury. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:21:09 Gerry

[It’s] becoming harder to get more hours if you need more.

00:21:12 Gerry

But you can use it anyway you want. Use them to visit a museum. Bring your own interpreter and it’s paid for. The employment, I think it's very big employment hours I think are very important, because…

00:21:24 Gerry

This is not on the employer to have to pay for the interpreters for the deaf person, so there's no extra burden to hire a deaf person. [Tim: mm-hmm] This is very different than some other country.

00:21:36 Tim

Yeah. So, you're saying to go to the doctor or say the hospital. You still have to use your private hours. [Gerry: Yep] OK. And, and what about court or police interaction, things like that.

00:21:49 Gerry

Police inter-… It depends on who initiated the interaction, I guess. [Tim: yeah] [ both laughing] If you want to... If you want to go to the police and file the complaint or report somebody, then you'll use your private hours. If you're in a penal court situation the court will provide the interpreter.

00:22:09 Tim

I see. OK.

00:22:11 Tim

And so, the four year program is basically you have the degree, you're now allowed to work as an interpreter type thing. [Gerry: That's right] OK.

00:22:19 Gerry

You have the degree. You'll become a member of the register. As long as you’re on the register you get pay, you can get paid for all your work through the semi-government interpreter agency.

00:22:29 Tim

So, is that four-year program starting someone who has absolutely no language skills?

00:22:36 Gerry

Unfortunately, yes, and I, I wish there was an entry test.

00:22:43 Gerry

Like I know in some other countries they have entry levels tests, [Tim: mm-hmm] or you, you must demonstrate at certain entry level, skill level in certain national sign language.

00:22:56 Gerry

In Holland unfortunately, the, let’s say the powers that be… [Gerry chuckles] [Tim: mm-hmm] The interpreter training have taking the position that it's not allowed. Well, I think Art academies, I think of Conservatory, uh, music academies like I think of theater academies where you have to demonstrate certain skill level before you can even enter. [Tim: mm-hmm] So, there's no such entry test available.

00:23:24 Gerry

So, it’s a four-year bachelor program and we need it in order to be a member of the register. The second condition is that in order to stay on the register you have to have a, a continious professional…

00:23:41 Tim

Yeah, professional development.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:23:43

A big thank you to everyone who shares this podcast with a colleague and friend. If you want to support the show even more, check out the show notes for links to Buy Me A Coffee because it's very embarrassing to fall asleep during an interview. Thank you. Let’s go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:24:01 Tim

So, you mentioned earlier about how CODA today kind of have a different journey than you did to get to, uh, but I believe you're talking about IS interpreting in, in general, OK, what is different today than compared to before?

00:24:19 Gerry

The short way of answering that I think would be to refer to a speech that Gary Sanderson from the US held that the World Federation of the Deaf conference in Durban, South Africa, if I’m not wrong…

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:24:39 Tim

Well, that's something to look forward to next week to hear the rest of that answer. Today, we got to listen to a lot of history and wonderful stories of how the sign language interpreting profession has evolved in The Netherlands.

00:24:56 Tim

We also heard about Dutch Sign language and how it has evolved over these years.

00:25:01 Tim

A few of the points that come out of these stories from Gerry is remembering that the profession developed in every country a little bit differently. And each individual interpreter had their own path to take, just like we do the decisions we make, the opportunities we take (that sounds like a song) anyway… Those actions that we take, determine where we go, how fast we develop our skills, our knowledge, our experience.

00:25:33 Tim

Those who are CODAs listening to this understand that brokering of language rather than interpreting. Many of the interpreters who are codas have gone through that phase from brokering language to interpreting which has taught the rest of us that perhaps we should remember, sometimes consecutive interpreting is best for the situation. It has its pros and cons compared to simultaneous interpreting.

00:26:02 Tim

Sometimes those challenging decisions that we take send us into a career path of more learning, more opportunities and broadens our skill set to help serve better. We can all go back to understanding how language is learned, that natural flow of learning. the receptive skills first.

00:26:25 Tim

But that means, we should be around the language and receiving the language as much as possible from native speakers.

00:26:35 Tim

One last point about the history of Dutch Sign language and how it evolved from the communities to more of a national standardized language. This is a good example of why some people believe that sign language is universal. They think well, someone creates it right and unfortunately projects like this to standardize the language many times perpetuates that opinion. That belief that someone is creating it.

00:27:08 Tim

Even though we know that's not the case, they are taking the language that they have and bringing these small pockets of communities and choosing what is widely used for this concept and what's less widely used for that concept. But it's the native speakers themselves doing this.

00:27:28 Tim

They must be involved in order to get it right. Who better to say what their language is than the natives?

00:27:36 Tim

I bring this up so that we can have a better picture and a better understanding and therefore a better answer when someone asks us why isn't it universal.

00:27:47 Tim

I hope you’ve enjoyed Gerry’s stories so far. We're going to get deeper next week. Until then, keep calm. Keep interpreting the dream of whoever we're inside of now. I'll see you next week. Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:28:41]