IW 113: Interview Julia Cramer Part 4: The Characters of Interpreting

See the character. Be the character. Show the character.

Julia Cramer from Germany gives us a final chunk of wisdom to continue our journey as sign language interpreters. Her experience as an interpreter and a teacher of interpreters reminds us of the advanced skills of bringing out the character of the clients we serve. She shows how we must learn from our mistakes, continually learn, and more.

Thank you Julia.

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Transcript

IW 113: Interview Julia Cramer Part 4: The Characters of Interpreting

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS]

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:34 Tim

And now the quote of the day by famous Austrian psychologist Alfred Adler.

00:00:42 Tim

“Men of genius are admired. Men of wealth are envied. Men of power are feared, but only men of character are trusted.”

00:00:54 Tim

In today's episode, we finished the interview with Julia Cramer from Germany. Today we delve into some particulars about how new interpreters can look at the field of interpreting and improve what they do, but for me, as an experienced interpreter, I see wonderful advice for us all.

00:01:16 Tim

We talk about the characters that we encounter that we have to interpret into how that is an advanced interpreting skill and how we are perceived by society, the profession and the individual interpreters.

00:01:31 Tim

Let's listen to these last bits of advice from Julia and let's look inwardly to see if our character as an interpreter can be trusted, trusted with the power that we have as interpreters rather than feared for that power of privilege. We definitely will not be envied by those who look at how much we get paid, but we might be admired for the intellectual skills that we have. Let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:02:04 Tim

As I do with all of my interviews, I would like to do a little fun section that I call word association. So, I'll give you a phrase or a word and you give me what comes first to your mind. Whether it's a story, whether it's a word, a vision of prophecy, whatever it is. [Julia chuckles, Tim joins]

00:02:24 Tim

OK, so the first word…

00:02:26 Tim

Is comfort food.

00:02:28 Julia

Heh. I often need it. [Tim laughs, Julia joins] That's my first association.

00:02:35 Tim

Often need it. That's great. Is there any specific type or?

00:02:42 Julia

Well, I would say that food in general provides me a lot of comfort. [both chuckles] Anything. I, I love eating, if you ask me. What are your hobbies? I would most possibly say eating is one of my hobbies. And what comforts me.

00:02:58 Julia

Well, things that have a lot of energy in them, I'm more the, the crisps type than the chocolate type. So to say, but I don't eat crisps that often. But French fries, for instance, would also be comfort food for me. [Tim: yeah] Or… also uh like, like Asian food with which has a lot of sauce and rice and things like that that also would be comfort food for me, yeah. And I think it can be very helpful because it just gives you warmth and, and I love it.

00:03:25 Tim

Yeah, yeah. Brings up your mood.

00:03:27 Julia

Yes, definitely.

00:03:28 Tim

Yeah, OK. Next… character.

00:03:33 Julia

Actually, I think of my students when you say character because that is something that I often tell people when they ask me why I love teaching, that I cherish having different characters in front of me and trying to cater to, to what they need from the training and how I can help them to develop and learn things.

00:03:53 Julia

So that is something that I really like. [Tim: mm-hmm] And on the other hand, character, an association I have is that…

00:04:04 Julia

For interpreters, it's often not possible to show their character and full extent in an interpreting situation because they have to be in the interpreter’s role. So, I guess that sometimes people would be very astonished if they met interpreters in private, how different they are. [Tim chuckles: yes, yes] As for me, I think I, I most probably, I, I tend to be much quie- quieter when I interpret [Tim chuckling] than when I'm somewhere personally.

00:04:29 Tim

Yeah.

00:04:31 Tim

Definitely, different personality, because we're taking on those characters of the people who are speaking.

00:04:37 Julia

We, we, we definitely do. We, we, we have to. And I think that is by the way if I may say this at this point also something that…

00:04:45 Julia

I think becomes clearer to interpreters during the course of their working life. How, how different characters of people in interpreting situations can be, and of how much importance it is to convey the character of a person to the other side. [Tim: mm-hmm] There's also this A = B thing that there's no character in A = B and there has to be room for that as well.

00:05:07 Tim

Yeah, yeah. For example, Deaf in an audience, sometimes they love a certain lecturer because of the way they talk.

00:05:14 Julia

Mm-hmm.

00:05:15 Tim

But the hearing students don't like that, professor, because he's boring. He's monotone.

00:05:21 Julia

Mm-hmm.

00:05:22 Tim

Or his jokes are bad, but the deaf person sometimes doesn't always get those characteristics. And those are things like you just said, we have to be mindful of to be able to convey that. And that's part of the equivalence. [Julia: mm-hmm]

00:05:36 Julia

Definitely. And you just have to get to a point where you have enough mental capacity to do that at all. [Tim: yeah] Of course, at the beginning you have to focus on content and the most important things and conveying characters is sometimes a bit of an extra, but it shouldn't be an extra, it should… It should be included from the beginning, of course, but it's difficult to, to reach that. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:05:58 Tim

Yeah, yeah.

00:06:00 Tim

OK, next…

00:06:02 Tim

Funny.

00:06:04 Julia

Funny.

00:06:06 Julia

Well, what can I think of…?

00:06:09 Julia

I don't have a clearly describable association with that, but I love funny situations. [both chuckle] I think fun is an important part and life without fun wouldn't really be worth living. So, funniness is… has a high value to me.

00:06:28 Tim

Yeah, yeah. I don't know why I'm laughing, but you're right. 

00:06:34 Julia

Because it's so funny. [both laughing]

00:06:35 Tim

Exactly. OK, next…

00:06:43 Tim

Confusing.

00:06:44 Julia

Many of the things people say are confusing, because… [Tim chuckling]

00:06:50 Julia

You just, just... Yeah, that's, that's one of the…

00:06:54 Julia

…interesting, but also at the same time difficult things about interpreting that you meet so many different persons and people you haven't ever talked to before and you have to get into their minds and find out what they are talking about. And that can be confusing.

00:07:07 Tim

Hmm.

00:07:07 Julia

As well or, as far as the contents are concerned, as well as concerning the thoughts and the personality and you have to make decisions on that. If you understand things this way or that way, and that can be very confusing.

00:07:24 Tim

Hmm, yes.

00:07:25 Tim

‘K, next…

00:07:27 Tim

Pet peeve. And pet peeve, I mean something that is annoying to you. So, every time someone does this or every time this happens, it's like, “Ohh, not again.” It's annoying or it's frustrating to you.

00:07:40 Julia

Mm-hmm. Yeah, there are two things that come to my mind. What first came to my mind is clearly connected to me being German. [Tim chuckles]

00:07:51 Julia

Because as you know, we have this tendency to have very long rows of nouns, which is very typical for the German language, and there is a way how, how this should be written and how it should be spelled. And sometimes you need a hyphen between the different words and in English you don't have that.

00:08:11 Julia

You can just combine individual nouns and just write them singularly, one after another. [Tim: mm-hmm] And that also comes into the German language a lot because so many people know no English very, very well and and and see written English texts. So, there's a tendency for people to write the German nouns wrong.

00:08:31 Tim

Ah.

00:08:32 Julia

[both slightly chuckling] And I if I see them…

00:08:33 Julia

Well, there must be a hyphen. And I just I tell my students all the time and there's I think they are quite afraid of, of doing written exams because I might point out to them that they have misspelled things. That is one of my pet peeves. [Tim: mm-hmm] And of course there are a lot of questions that people tend to ask interpreters repeatedly or say things wrong and… [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:08:58 Julia

What sometimes makes me a bit upset is when the terminology is not right and they instead of saying, “Well, this is our sign language interpreter”, they say, “This is our sign translator [Tim: mm-hmm] and they will have a simultaneous translation right now, here.” [Tim chuckling: yeah]

00:09:18 Julia

And it's hard not to speak up and say, “No, I'm not doing simultaneous translation. And I’m a sign language interpreter, by the way.” [Tim chuckling]

00:09:26 Julia

But you get used to it.

00:09:28 Tim

Exactly. Yeah.

00:09:30 Tim

OK, maybe one more…

00:09:35 Tim

Heartbreaking.

00:09:37 Julia

Heartbreaking. Oh yes.

00:09:40 Julia

As an interpreter, you have to be empathetic. I guess. I think that's one of the most important qualities to be able to understand how people work in quotation marks because people are so different, and you have to adapt to, to everybody.

00:09:58 Julia

And just get a feeling of what they, what they want to say, what they are saying, what, where they're heading and so on. [Tim: mmm] So, empathy is needed for interpreters.

00:10:08 Julia

And uh, at the same time, interpreters have to be in quite a lot of situations that are somehow heartbreaking.

00:10:17 Julia

Because they, they especially sign language interpreters in Community interpreting situations, are so close to, to people…

00:10:24 Julia

Be it a situation where somebody gets a child.

00:10:29 Julia

Somebody is buried, they get bad news and so on. So, there are various situations where you have to feel what is going on in others and that, of course is very, very heartbreaking in, in many circumstances, many situations. So that's difficult, yes.

00:10:45 Julia

And also, I think…

00:10:49 Julia

This feeling…

00:10:52 Julia

That the situation is heartbreaking…

00:10:55 Julia

Might be…

00:10:57 Julia

Even…

00:10:59 Julia

More directly felt by sign language interpreters than by spoken language interpreters in many cases, because as when they do constructed action you have to enact the feeling the person has. So, if a person is in front of you clearly feeling, feeling devastated and you have to voice or sign what the person says. It's…

00:11:22 Julia

…gets under your skin, of course, and that is heartbreaking. Many times. Yeah, yeah.

00:11:26 Tim

Yeah, yeah, you're right. It's the, the mode of the interpretation process can definitely feel different [Julia: mm-hmm] than spoken language.

00:11:36 Julia

Yes, yes, I, I, I'm sure for spoken language colleagues it's, it's difficult, very, very difficult in many situations as well, but at least they don't, I think, they can have… leave it outside of their skin, [Tim: yeah] easy, more easily than, than we do.

00:11:52 Tim

Yeah. And we go back to self-care.

00:11:55 Julia

Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:12:01 Tim

So…

00:12:02 Tim

Since your students may be listening in your journey as a sign language interpreter.

00:12:08 Tim

What mistakes did you make along the way that have [Julia starts chuckling, Tim joins] taught you to become better.

00:12:17 Julia

Let's see… umm.

00:12:22 Tim

We only have an hour. [laughing] Yeah. Yeah. Well, but I think the most important thing to say is that it's not possible to to go along the way without making mistakes. [Tim chuckling] Umm, that it's an important part of becoming what you do, and you have to try things out in many situations. You get in situations that are unpredictable.

00:12:46 Tim

Hmm.

00:12:46 Julia

And so…

00:12:48 Julia

Interpreting is very prone to mistakes of every kind, be it linguistically, be it concerning your behavior. Mistakes do happen, and that is one thing that is very important for me. Also, to tell, to, to my students, that it can happen.

00:13:03 Julia

But you should try to avoid them as best as possible and if mistakes happen, try to learn something from it as you said. Along as that things are happening and, uh,…

00:13:14 Julia

I'm just thinking if I can come a clear situation or anything that would illustrate it.

00:13:20 Julia

I think one mistake you can, can make which is not a real mistake but, but more of an advice. That you should try not to be too nervous about what you do. [Tim: hmm] That you just try to get it in a situation and be as relaxed as possible, which is easy to say. Maybe that's connected to a thing that can be done wrong.

00:13:41 Julia

Is that if people do not prepare enough that they can get into a situation and they have not avoided possible pitfalls, [Tim: mm-hmm] and that is something you just have to find out for yourself how much preparation is needed for what.

00:13:50 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:13:57 Julia

And if you get too, too nervous, that will also be difficult because you just cannot produce the best you can give in this situation. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:14:06 Julia

And then one thing you, you have to know is… I think it, it's, it's more like what you should know and, and not of a mistake. What comes to my mind right now.

00:14:16 Julia

One thing is also that you just have to make sure for yourself what the situation is for and what the aim of the interpreting situation is.

00:14:28 Julia

And if you don't have that clear before, it's, it's difficult to get it into the right direction. This is also a very possible mistake you can make. And as in general I would say that it's not possible to…

00:14:40 Julia

You shouldn't think you're the right interpreter for every person.

00:14:42 Julia

That there are, that's just don't take yourself too, too serious. I would say like, like there are situations where other interpreters are much more suitable for a situation and then try to, to make, make it possible that they go there and not, [Tim: mm-hmm] not you. That is also some, some, some important thing. I would say that, and I think that…

00:15:03 Julia

Umm, young interpreters often think as, as we also did, when, when we were younger that we have to take up every assignment that comes along our way, [Tim: yes] and that it's not true. [Tim chuckles] It doesn't serve anybody if, if you go somewhere and it's just not, it doesn't fit. So, so that people have to, to learn to say, “No, [Tim chuckling] I'm sorry I cannot do it.” And the best thing is if they if they can provide somebody else who can go. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:15:30 Julia

But that is also something that is in our code of ethics, by the way, that interpreters are free in the choice of what assignments they take. And that isn't a very important thing, I would say.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:15:38 Tim

Have you ever wondered what I do to come up with ideas for the podcast? [Hmph] Me too. However, some of those ideas, and some of those extra bits from the episodes are recorded for you as supporters of the podcast. Just click on the links in the show notes of Buy Me A Coffee and become a supporter to listen to those extra bits. Now let's go back to the big bits.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:16:05 Tim

I think it's relevant to your journey as an interpreter from what you've already said, sign language interpreting was not really well known until in the 90s in society in Germany, I should say.

00:16:17 Tim

How has that changed the view of what an interpreter is? A sign language interpreter? Is it viewed as social work or as a profession on its own? Or what is the viewpoint of society in general?

00:16:33 Julia

That's a very interesting topic, [both chuckle] something I could talk about for hours. Umm, because there are so many different layers, I would say in it and…

00:16:46 Julia

One part of the answer is that I think that society has a clearer view of what interpreting is nowadays than in the earlier days. And one…

00:16:55 Tim

Sure.

00:16:59 Julia

One of the very few beneficial factors of the pandemic was that sign language interpreting became more visible in the media. It was very clear that in many instances interpreters were shown.

00:17:12 Julia

So, people often now say, “Oh well, I've seen that on television, or I have seen that in, in the talk about the status of the pandemic also.” So, they know better what interpreting is and they have an idea why it was important. So, I think accessibility was raised throughout the last few years, it, it, it got better.

00:17:32 Tim

Yeah.

00:17:33 Julia

Still people… have no idea of the interpreting process. [Tim: yeah] As you, as you asked me about the pet peeves, one of the questions you, you yourself probably have heard a million times as well. It's like, “Well sign language interpreting, is it almost like simultaneous interpreting? Is it the same or it's, it's, is, …it’s different isn't it?

00:17:54 Julia

Because people just don't understand interpreting and they still think that spoken language interpreting and sign language interpreting is something completely different, [Tim: yeah] and they don't just don't get it. [Tim chuckles: yeah] And that is something that, I think…

00:18:08 Julia

…probably won't change because society is just so big to educate everybody and, and explain to them what it means. So, [Tim: yeah] this is something we have to live with, I think. And or the, the next generations as well because… or, or they… even more because now with automated translations it becomes even more difficult for them. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:18:28 Julia

And if people have in mind the interpreter standing next to somebody giving a presentation or a say person on TV giving a presentation, then they would most probably see it as a translation.. oorr, uh, interpreting! Uh, I’m doing it myself. I'm sorry… as an interpreting task. [both chuckling]

00:18:50 Julia

If they have experience interpreting more in Community interpreting situations, I suspect they would more see it as a social task. That is one thing, for people who have seen interpreters themselves. So, what experiences people have and that it could be the one or the other. But what is very obvious is that the funding of interpreters is in social legislation.

00:19:13 Julia

And, and that shows the societal and the governmental perspective on it. [Tim: mm-hmm] And there was, was one incident a couple of years ago, which we still have to deal with is that there was a, a law in Germany.

00:19:28 Julia

Which is about who has to pay VAT or, or take VAT into their invoices and then give it to the government. [Tim: mm-hmm] And suddenly somebody said, “Well, interpreters sign language interpreters must not put VAT into their invoices because they belong to a certain group who is excluded from VAT.”

00:19:47 Julia

And this is a group of institutions that work for disabled people or something like that. [Tim: yeah] I don't know exactly the word the right wording anymore, but it was very clearly connected to disability.

00:20:02 Julia

And that was a moment where the interpreting community just spoke up, say, “Well, we are interpreters, we are not carers of disabled people. That was it, carers of disabled people. [Tim: uh huh] I would say, well, that's not us. So, and that is still something that has not been… which, which isn't clear until now. If we have to have VAT or not and who are we to be described. So, it's difficult. It's, it's always a mixture and it depends on the perspective and on the situation and so on.

00:20:32 Julia

I definitely see myself as a language professional and I would always say that we work with languages, and we have the additional layer of working with sign language which gives something like a different flavour. You could maybe say it because of the situations are different and the people involved are different and it helps to make accessibility possible.

00:20:55 Julia

But still it's not a social work that we're doing.

00:20:59 Tim

Yeah, it's complicated.

00:21:01 Julia

It is, definitely. And it, it makes it difficult to, to explain to people like when you ask what is sign language interpreting you could include all this when you talk about it. [Tim laughing] But, umm, people don't have so much time, so you usually don't do it.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:21:24 Tim

So as the voice of Germany, what is one thing you would like sign language interpreters to remember?

00:21:32 Julia

That's a heavy burden. [Tim laughing, Julia chuckles] It's really hard to reduce it to one thing, and I think many of the things I would like people to remember are things we've already talked about.

00:21:46 Julia

One thing that is very important for me is to, to, to be kind to yourself, to find ways to take care of yourself and to accept that interpreting is prone to mistakes. That is something that you can…

00:22:03 Julia

That you must aim to get a perfect result, but you shouldn't be too, uh, perfectionist and, and, uh, allow yourself to live with mistakes you've done but have to take care of them of course.

00:22:16 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:22:17 Julia

That is one important thing.

00:22:19 Julia

Oh yes!

00:22:20 Julia

I came across something. Something I always try to, to also teach my students, and if I may direct this to student interpreters.

00:22:29 Julia

One important take away for me is from my experience.

00:22:33 Julia

That…

00:22:34 Julia

Whenever you come across a word or a term or a topic you think, “Well, I have no idea what that is” …

00:22:40 Julia

Try to look it up. [both chuckle] Because my clear experience is you will come across it a couple of times throughout the next few weeks and it's always worth looking things up. This is one of the things I learned very early in my career. [Tim: mm-hmm] If there's a term you haven't heard, try to find out how it is spelled, should you be in a situation where you have to fingerspell it.

00:23:02 Julia

Find out what it is and be open to any kind of information that comes your way, because you might use it. And it needn't be the typical general knowledge things. It could be anything that is in the newspaper, so, umm. Be like a, like a sponge [Tim: yeah] and take it all up in yourself. And that is some kind of advice for the, for the young interpreters.

00:23:24 Julia

For the others, I think everybody has their own experience and has a broad range of things they have experienced and lived through so I, I wouldn't dare to give my experience to them. [both chuckling]

00:23:40 Tim

I think everything you said is something we all need to consider. [Julia: mm-hmm] So yeah, definitely. Julia, this has been wonderful. 

00:23:47 Julia

Ohh thank you.

00:23:48 Tim

It's great to talk to you after all this time and to hear some of the things that make me say yes, yes, yes, I agree.

00:23:57 Julia

Thank you. That's great.

00:23:58 Tim

So…

00:23:59 Tim

Thank you for coming on to the podcast. Appreciate it.

00:24:02 Julia

I'm really happy. And definitely I feel honored that you asked me to be.  [Tim: Thank you. Yeah] And, and if I may say that I, I was very excited [chuckling] and a bit nervous, and it felt really comfortable. So, thank you for, for guiding me through it.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:24:23 Tim

Julia has been very sweet, but we all know that she guided us through some wonderful episodes with some great advice from an everyday interpreting perspective, from her knowledge as a teacher, and experience in our profession. Let's go over some of the points from today. I think the most important thing was…

00:24:43 Tim

When she told us, we all need comfort food, [chuckles] a lot, and often.

00:24:50 Tim

Her view about character, seeing so many characters in our profession, so many different types of interpreters, personalities…

00:25:00 Tim

And yet we all do the same thing. We all give it 100% as much as we can, if we've had enough comfort food, by determining how the other characters in the room are communicating. Sometimes our own character is suppressed, not sometimes, always. It is suppressed.

00:25:20 Tim

It does come out in our interpretation at times, but we are conveying the other characters in the room. The more we do that, the more advanced we are.

00:25:30 Tim

The more experienced we become, the less effort it is to create the interpretation itself and the more we can get into the character of the interpretation, the characters who are speaking, to give that human touch to the interpretation. And that takes time.

00:25:48 Tim

As we’ve all seen talented people, they make it look so easy, but it's because they practiced it, not just when they're working, but they practice before they perform. Before they do that job.

00:26:02 Tim

And that's how we improve as well. When we make those mistakes, that's great. It's telling us and showing us that we see the mistakes that we know they're there because we know what it should look like, what it should feel like, and therefore we will improve the next time, working on it continually and avoiding those mistakes.

00:26:24 Tim

We need to remember that we are not always the best fit for that situation, for that client. Humility is part of character. Knowing that I am not the one for that job, society may never fully understand what we do, but that's OK because we don't fully understand what they do either.

00:26:44 Tim

That's why we are the experts at what we do, because we do know what we do. That's a lot of “DO”s.

00:26:52 Tim

The last bit of information from Julia was to continually learn when we don't know something, look it up, find that answer.

00:27:04 Tim

Teach ourselves every time. Some great advice from a great interpreter, a good friend and colleague. So, thank you, Julia, once again for teaching us to keep calm and to characterizing interpreting of the characters with our own character. [lightly chuckles]

00:27:25 Tim

I'll see you next week. Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:28:05]