IW 112: Interview Julia Cramer Part 3: The Long and Short of Ethics

Wait, what is that sound? Lawnmower!!??

Today Julia Cramer from Germany speaks about artistic sign language interpreting, ethics, politics, self-care, and the skills of interpreters needed when a lawnmower is noisy. She and I enjoy some laughs and mutual understandings. Enjoy.

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Transcript

IW 112: Interview Julia Cramer Part 3: The Long and Short of Ethics

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS]

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:34 Tim

And now the quote of the day by German philosopher Immanuel Kant.

00:00:42 Tim

“Do the right thing because it is right.”

00:00:46 Tim

Can't argue with that. In today's episode, we talk about surprisingly ethics in the field of sign language. Interpreting well, we don't specifically talk about ethics, but the topic of ethics permeates the whole episode, connects each topic together.

00:01:06 Tim

Today I speak with Julia Cramer, continuing the interview. In this third episode, she gives us her insights about artistic interpreting, the codes of ethics a little bit about politics, and how we all should just communicate even better.

00:01:25 Tim

There's so much to enjoy in this episode. So, let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:01:35 Tim

So, your passion for sign language interpreting has taken you to doing more theater work or artistic interpreting.

00:01:44 Julia

Right.

00:01:45 Tim

How is that? Well, first of all, how did you get into that? And second, how do you see it differently than other aspects of sign language interpreting?

00:01:56 Julia

Mm-hmm

00:01:56 Tim

Or other settings, I should say.

00:01:59 Julia

Mm-hmm.

00:02:00 Julia

I always had a strong interest for, for theater and the arts and the creative area in general, [Tim: mm-hmm] so…

00:02:15 Julia

I, I used to go to, to theatre myself quite often and then there was situations at the beginning of my career where other interpreters approached me and everybody else to to see who could work with them in such a setting.

00:02:33 Julia

And at the beginning, I didn't dare to try it so to say [both chuckle.] I thought, “Well, no. Let's wait for a couple of years to do that” because I just had a lot of respect.

00:02:49 Julia

And then at some point it happened by coincidence that I had my first assignment in this area because there was a, a company did an outing with a whole group of coworkers and they went to see a musical and somehow another colleague and me interpreted that one, and that was my first step and so... [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:03:10 Julia

Afterwards, after I had tried it out, [both chuckle] I thought well that is something I really enjoy and then another assignment came up and I decided to do it. And yeah, that's basically how it happened, [Tim: yeah, yeah] with everything. When an assignment comes up and you have to consider. Is it something for me or not? And as I like theater a lot and I, I just had a feeling I wanted to do it. [Tim: mm-hmm] That's, that's to say and try it out.

00:03:38 Julia

And, umm…

00:03:39 Julia

What is very different about it, of course, is that as we said before in Community interpreting or conference interpreting situations that the interpreters always have to take back a lot of what they are. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:03:54 Julia

So, they have to be interpreters and convey the message, and they depict characters that are present but not in an extent as it is done on stage, and that is something that...

00:04:07 Julia

One of the things I enjoy when theater interpreting is to be able to fully paint the picture of a character and to get into it and become a character even more than in standard interpreting situations. [Tim: mm-hmm] And also, what I really like about it is the ability to be more challenged [Tim: mm-hmm] in a way, because you have to find more solutions for things that would be closer to the original text in other situations and in theater situations you have to be find a solution that serves a similar... aim.

00:04:50 Julia

And sometimes looks really different, [Tim: hmm] so it's more…

00:04:55 Julia

You can bring more of yourself into it sometimes, and you can can be a bit more creative, so to say, and this is something which I really like, and it's a different way of working and it is something which you can only do if you have a passion for it, I think. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:05:13 Julia

On the other hand, that is the thing that makes it difficult to be a theater interpreter, that it always takes too much so much time to prepare things right. [Tim: yeah] That you stand on, on a stage for 1 1/2 to three hours, however long it is, if it is Faust or whatever, [both lightly chuckle] and then it's a quite longer thing. And, and that you have to, yeah, prepare it for weeks in advance [Tim: yeah] and you just have to find the time to do it.

00:05:42 Tim

And how is the pay in that field? Do you get paid for your preparation time then?

00:05:48 Julia

Partly, partly, it wouldn't be possible to pay it, pay to a full extent, so it's always a mixture of, of a job and something you do in your private time because you feel that it's worth doing it.

00:05:59 Tim

Yeah, that's where the passion comes in. Definitely, yeah.

00:06:02 Julia

That's. Yeah, definitely. Definitely, yeah. And then you have to have colleagues who have a good established working condition with that you can fully…eh…

00:06:13 Julia

Trust is not the right word. You have the, you are somehow on the same level that you know how they react, and you know how to do what they do. And you know that without even looking at them. And that is also an important part of working on a theater stage with a colleague that you just have to be even more of unity than you have to be when you do other team interpreting situations.

00:06:37 Tim

Yeah.

00:06:38 Julia

Not a unity, a unit is what I meant. [chuckles]

00:06:40 Tim

Yeah, you have to have unity as a unit.

00:06:42 Julia

Right.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:06:48 Tim

What is the philosophy, or perhaps describe your philosophy when it comes to ethics for sign language interpreters?

00:06:58 Julia

The philosophy for myself or for what I try to teach my students, or what my view of the whole thing is? Sorry to ask because, but also might [be] differences and, in nuances.

00:07:13 Tim

Because there are differences I I would like to hear both.

00:07:16 Julia

OK.

00:07:17 Tim

And ask why they're different.

00:07:19 Julia

Mm-hmm.

00:07:20 Julia

As for ethics, I would say that in many cases it's necessary to just have a bit of a, a broader rule which can be adapted to the specific situation. [Tim: mm-hmm] And as people just get into different situations in the end, even if there is a general rule people have to stand up for it themselves and try to decide what they do, what they make out of it and what they how they put it into practice.

00:07:55 Julia

So, so, in general and you're right, it all comes together in a way. Everybody has to, to get to a point where they know this is how I should behave and also bring in the situational factors and then come to a decision.

00:08:11 Julia

And the important thing for me is that interpreters look back on a situation they've been in, and they say, “Well, what I did, I did it at my best intentions. I did it because I definitely thought it was right at that moment.” [Tim: mm-hmm] And hopefully and that happens in the far most cases. That was the right decision. It can happen that people make wrong decisions on, on the spot.

00:08:35 Julia

But then they have to try and see what they can do about it. If it is necessary to go back and try to settle it in a way or to just keep in mind to behave differently in, in a similar situation, if it comes up. And so, ethics for me is just trying to make sure that is the most important thing that everybody, everybody's needs, needs are somehow catered [to] in this situation, that everybody is seen, is taken into consideration, and is on equal levels. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:09:06 Julia

And that the technical interpreting part is done as best as possible, that is also part of ethics. And also, and, and if I go back to everybody has to be taken into consideration. That goes along a bit with the definition I talked about earlier that it's about the deaf person and the situation, the hearing persons in this situation, but also the other people there, then the people who has to pay for it.

00:09:33 Julia

Ethics is also that you make sure that the situation, um, that the fees don't get too much, in my mind. That, that you make sure that society doesn’t pay, uh, um, too much that is necessary.

00:09:46 Julia

So, you have right invoices for instance. That is also ethics. Then something that is sometimes forgotten that also the interpreter has to feel good, and right, and be able to fulfill his job and work in this area for a long time. [Tim: mm-hmm] So that people are taken into account and interpreting works. And that is just two sentences, [both laugh] but I think you can put everything else that is in a code of ethics into these two sentences in a way.

00:10:14 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:10:14 Julia

So I personally, ah, very much in favor of codes of ethics that aren't too long, because people cannot keep in mind every single line of it, but just that people are equipped with general ideas. What could be ethical behavior and try to find the right solution in the situation, [Tim: yeah] if that makes sense.

00:10:37 Tim

Ohh yeah, yeah, it definitely does. I'm just thinking about... I'm like, “Can we change all the codes of ethics in the world to two sentences?” Yeah, that'd be nice.

00:10:44 Julia

Yeah, well, as an example, as I said, we have those different associations in Germany and we used to have a code of ethics which was for all of the associations, which was quite short.

00:10:54 Julia

But not very precise in some aspects and then later on a second code of ethics was developed which is now for the umbrella organization and some of the regional associations through that. [Tim: mm-hmm] So, we have two codes of ethics, and they are very different. And personally, I prefer the shorter one because I think it's easier to have ideas what it means.

00:11:14 Julia

And it gives you the freedom to adapt it to the situations. [Tim: mm-hmm] Whereas the other, the longer one, has the advantage that there are examples in it and that is also something many people feel very happy with that they can say, well, here in the code of ethic it says if I come into this situation. I have to do this and that, and for that it works. [Tim: yeah]

00:11:35 Julia

I personally would go for a broader approach.

00:11:38 Tim

Yeah, yeah. I think it also depends on how experienced the interpreter is. Not just as an interpreter, but in life as well. [Julia: yeah] And so sometimes newer interpreters or those newer to the profession need to have some boundaries, [Julia: mm-hmm] so they need those details.

00:11:57 Julia

Definitely. And, and then also if, if you, if you just consider that interpreting decisions always have to be done or taken on the spot while interpreting, while having a lot of mental load. And then yeah, [Tim: mm-hmm] you just… It, It's not easy to, to, to get there and take a decision and so…

00:12:16 Julia

Rules are very important, [both chuckle] and they may help, especially if you can think things through before a situation. Then I think they are most helpful.

00:12:26 Tim

Yeah. And I think that's part of our preparation as an interpreter for different assignments. Part of the preparation should be, “how am I going to deal with this or this or this if it happens.” [Julia: mm-hmm]

00:12:37 Tim

Yeah, that ethical decision making. [Julia: yeah]

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:12:40 Tim

A big thank you to everyone who shares this podcast with a colleague and friend. If you want to support the show even more, check out the show notes for links to Buy Me A Coffee because it's very embarrassing to fall asleep during an interview. Thank you. Let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:12:57 Tim

So, let's talk a little political. [Julia: mm-hmm]

00:13:00 Tim

How is the situation, the relationship, between the professional bodies of sign language interpreting and the deaf professional bodies like the deaf associations or clubs, that sort of thing? Are they working together and collaborating really well or has there been ups and downs there?

00:13:22 Julia

Yeee-Yes. [both chuckling] I would say that there are ups and downs because political collaboration very often is connected to, to individual people and how they, they get along, of course. So, throughout the history, I think there has always been collaboration on all the different levels that is national and regional.

00:13:42 Julia

The bodies inform each other in many cases, and they ask for the, the other ones’ advice in many cases, but…

00:13:52 Julia

That's one of our wishes for the future that the collaboration gets better. Because there is so much or there would be so much possible if we had a really strong, good collaboration between the deaf associations and the interpreters associations, it would be very helpful because there are still a lot of things to be tackled.

00:14:12 Julia

And if, for instance, an expert opinion is asked from one of these bodies, it would be very helpful if they would generally just answer together to make sure and show that they, they have the same ideas. But of course, I think it's natural that in, in many situations there are different views on things. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:14:30 Julia

Like as for example, of course, a deaf organization often thinks that it's good that interpreting fees aren't too high, so that the budgets just lasts for a longer time. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:14:43 Julia

On the other hand, it's very natural that interpreting associations want their members to, to get along and to have a, a good living. So, so, that's just difficult to bring together and, and so both sides just need to communicate more, [Tim: mm-hmm] and then they could find a solution.

00:14:59 Julia

And then just...

00:15:00 Julia

For instance, like in this case work together for bigger budgets, [chuckles] that enough interpreting can be provided, but still the interpreters have an income which is enough. And that's still… for instance, young interpreters have the idea this is a profession [that] I can make a living in it. I can pursue to it. I start my working life.

00:15:21 Julia

And so on. So, more communication would be needed and then there would be much more possible I think.

00:15:27 Tim

Yeah.

00:15:28 Tim

In Germany, I don't know if you can speak in in general here or not, but how is self-care for interpreting? You know the getting rid of all of the [sounds of a lawnmower cutting grass] mental stress that we go through - and I'm going to go in and close the window because I can hear someone mowing the lawn. [both chuckle]

00:15:44 Julia

…mowing the lawn, yeah. [mowing sounds continues]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:15:52 Tim

I left this little bit in to give you a behind the scenes look at how I edit some of these interviews. Sometimes life happens, but many of these little outtakes have a small, humorous, or teachable moment, something that we all can learn from.

00:16:11 Tim

So, I've saved many of these outtakes and I put them on my Buy Me A Coffee website where supporting members get to take a listen and see behind the scenes and hear some of those extra teachable moments.

00:16:27 Tim

Let's listen to this one now and then we'll get back to the real interview.

[short pause]

00:16:32 Tim

That's pretty hilarious. I was totally ignoring it there for a while, but then I'm like, wait a minute. [Julia chuckles]

00:16:38 Julia

But it started just, just a moment ago. [Tim: Oh, OK good.] So I, I was wondering if I could bring it up that I can hear it. Probably it's on the recording. [both chuckling]

00:16:48 Julia

And it's a, a good example for interpreting brains that you just didn't…uh, realize.

00:16:51 Tim

Yes. [both chuckle]

00:16:54 Tim NARRATOR VOICE

And now you can hear the lawnmower in the background. The interpreters who are talking can't hear it [Julia: yeah] because they shut it off. [Julia: right] OK, it's called a skill set. OK.

00:17:04 Tim

I'll just ask again.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:17:10 Tim

How do you handle the task of self-care? Is there something that you maybe teach in Germany? You know, try to do this or do that? Or is it all individual of how someone mentally turns off after stressful day of interpreting?

00:17:28 Julia

I assume that at most universities there is a topic concerning self-care and personal well-being [Tim: mm-hmm] and professional diseases and everything included in in the classes. So, you would shortly talk about it. But of course, the very different situation if you hear that while you're still a student, or when you're a working interpreter.

00:17:52 Julia

Because I think you just cannot imagine some things like how when you work a lot you just feel it in your body for instance. And I think that is something you just cannot imagine when you're starting to learn how to interpret or what happens with your brain after you've been working for eight hours. [Tim: mm-hmm] 

00:18:11 Julia

That is difficult to describe and it's not only the students who wouldn't understand it, it's also the rest of the population who probably won't understand it. [Tim: right] And you just have to experience it. And that is something that I experienced for myself, for instance, that…

00:18:25 Julia

When I was younger, I used to read a lot. I used to read all the time and I used to listen to the radio [Tim: mm-hmm] from morning to evening and I just can't do it anymore. [chuckles] [Tim chuckling: Yes!] Because I found out that my brain needs a rest in between. [chuckles] So, I think you, you have to develop your personal ways on, on how to do self-care.

00:18:46 Julia

The good thing is the... There's so much information on how you can do self-care.

00:18:52 Julia

And especially for the younger interpreters, I find that especially psychological well-being is a very important topic right now in the media. So, they I think they are brought up in a way that helps them to handle things better and to not lose themselves in in the stress.

00:19:11 Julia

And also of course, the associations regularly offer courses that help people to, to get along. It's mostly…

00:19:20 Julia

One thing is psychological coping with stressful situations. The other thing is yoga [Tim chuckles] and other techniques that there are. So, so, I think there are things on offer you can pick out what whatever helps you.

00:19:38 Julia

But still one thing is theory. The other thing is practice. [Tim: mmm] Because first of all, as most interpreters work freelance, it's always difficult to, to, to take the decision yourself when to put something in, some time for yourself. It could be easier for employed interpreters because their, their employers could just get you, like you have a, [Tim: yeah] a break while you move, or you have to do this or that.

00:20:05 Julia

Umm, and I think you have to get in a rhythm with self-care to, to make sure things happen like it's, it's not the things to do on one individual day, but that you get used to, to plan in times where you don't interpret like, like having holidays.

00:20:21 Julia

Or after a stressful week to, to have a day off when you worked during the weekend and things like that. [Tim: yeah] I think you have to learn that and like, like with many things you just have to do it wrong. [both chuckle]

00:20:31 Julia

And find out that's not the way to go on because I don't feel well today. It must have been too much yesterday. I have to think about how to do it and then find a way for it.

00:20:42

Yeah. Yeah. So, self-care is not a one-day thing. It's a, it's a habit.

00:20:48 Julia

It's a habit and you have to you try different things out. And of course, for instance, when I teach my students, I try to tell them a lot about it. I also tell them that, eh, self-care is also that you consider that you take along something to eat and to drink. If you go somewhere [Tim: mm-hmm] because you don't, you never know if it will be possible to get something and you don't know how long the assignment will take in many cases.

00:21:12 Julia

And it's your right to also during the situations if like, for instance, when you have a sound from outside and there's a lawn mower, [both chuckling] that it's totally OK to say, “I'm sorry, can we just close the windows?” [Tim: yeah] because it's difficult to interpret like that. because if they could.

00:21:30 Julia

Because if they could try to just not listen to the sound coming from the outside, but the effort will be higher and it's not only the, the interpreting result but also self-care that it's just more strenuous to, to interpreting.

00:21:43 Julia

And that also adds to what I said before that, in an interpreting situation, it's not only the participants of the, the talk, but it's also the interpreter who has to be OK and feel well for themselves, but also for being able to interpret well. [Tim: mm-hmm]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:22:04 Tim

Another fun-filled, information-packed episode.

00:22:09 Tim

Let's try to summarize what Julia has given us today. First artistic interpreting. It's much more work than our regular community interpreting jobs or even conference jobs.

00:22:21 Tim

It takes more time, more analysis and more of YOU. She says we need the passion for artistic interpreting to actually interpret it well. However, it is much less pay because we're not always paid for the full time that we put in.

00:22:42 Tim

And teaming with someone in artistic interpreting means you have to be a committed, connected, in-sync team.

00:22:50 Tim

Knowing when one is going to adlib and how to be able to react to that. It's a little bit more of interpretive interpreting. Hmmm. Next, we talked a little more serious about ethics. For those interpreters who are new, who need to know the answers, who need to have that concrete feeling of security in knowing that I'm doing the right thing, the long codes of ethics give those concrete examples of the ideas behind the philosophy within the code of ethics.

00:23:27 Tim

The short ones are what I believe most experienced interpreters come to formulate in their own minds. We start to realize how it's all connected. We see the big picture in every detail in each situation. We're not perfect. We don't make those decisions based on a wholesome, holistic philosophy. Instantly. Always. No.

00:23:54 Tim

But we tend to look at ethics in a broader sense, over time. And I'm speaking in generalities. For each individual it is different. Sometimes we do need the concrete, especially when we're in interpreter mental-overload, definitely.

00:24:13 Tim

And Julia speaks to the point that ethics is not just about those moral or ethical dilemmas that we face. Ethics also touches the quality of interpreting that we are producing, the way we interact with people through e-mail, through messages, through videos and face to face. It's how we are perceived as part of the profession of interpreters, how we represent other interpreters and the clients that we serve. We just can't get away from ethics. It's everywhere.

00:24:47 Tim

Speaking of which, as Julia said, it's also part of the politics of the organizations that we inhabit. She said that it's key to have communication within and between the different organizations, and that is critical not only for the strength and unity of our own professional organization.

00:25:08 Tim

But those organizations that we serve and are connected to, but I believe even more important for the next generation of interpreters.

00:25:18 Tim

So that they can see and imagine themselves working in this professional environment where it is safe for them to feel connected without the political stress.

00:25:31 Tim

And lastly, speaking of the outtake with the lawn mower, it is a skill set for interpreters to ignore the noise so we can focus on the task of quality interpreting. But connecting that to what Julia said about self-care in that…

00:25:47 Tim

She finds herself reading less and listening to music less because her mind needs that time to drain out the noise to get rid of the noise rather than adding more and more to it. And I compare that to Robyn K Dean in my interview with her last year where she said her mother told her ‘you used to talk more.’

00:26:11 Tim

And Robin thought, well, you know, I've been listening to people talk all day as an interpreter. I just want quiet. Another form of self-care, which connects to what Julia said. What about you? Has your character or behavior changed, like Julia and Robin and me?

00:26:32 Tim

I no longer listen to music as much as I used to, so in the interest of self-care, keep calm.

00:26:40 Tim

Keep interpreting the long and the short of it.

00:26:

I'll see you next week. Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:27:22]