IW 111: Interview Julia Cramer Part 2: Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? Phone an Interpreter

What is Sign Language Interpreting?
A) Translating word for word B) Flapping your hands
...or Phone a Friend?

Today Julia Cramer from Germany digs deeper into the definition of sign language interpreting and everything around it. Plus, she shares more details of the profession in Germany, including the fact that freelancing does NOT mean what you think it does! Join us in this rich conversation that connects us all.

Next week we see into her passion of artistic interpreting and more insights.

LINKS mentioned:

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Transcript

IW 111: Interview Julia Cramer Part 2: Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? – Phone an Interpreter

Support the Podcast!

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS]

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:34 Tim

And now the quote of the day by the British rock band The Animals.

00:00:41 Tim

“Yeah, baby, sometimes I'm so carefree with a joy that's hard to hide. Yeah, and other times, it seems that all I ever have is worry.”

00:00:51 Tim

“And then you're bound to see my other side.”

00:00:54 Tim

“Oh, I'm just a soul whose intentions are good. Oh, Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood.”

00:01:03 Tim

The next time you listen to that song, whether it's the first or the 50th, listen as though an interpreter is singing.

00:01:12 Tim

Today Julia Cramer and I discuss how complex the task of interpreting is she compares.

00:01:21 Tim

Being a beginning interpreter to an experienced interpreter and how the definition of interpreter has changed from when we first started to where we are now. The complexities go deeper than just linguistics, just communication, or even ethics.

00:01:41 Tim

So, listen as Julia and I talk about everything that has influenced her journey as an interpreter and an interpreter educator. So, let's go back to Germany with Julia. Let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:02:01 Tim

Last week, we left off with a little teaser for this episode, so let's go back and start there. 

00:02:08 Tim

So, when you first started interpreting compared to now, what do you see differently?

00:02:14 Julia

You mean personally? For my work as an interpreter or with the look at the society.

00:02:21 Tim

Yes. [Julia bursts out laughing, Tim joins her]

00:02:25 Julia

Oh, OK.

00:02:28 Julia

Yeah. When, when I look back to, to the time when I started interpreting, I will start with the personal part.

00:02:34 Tim

Sure.

00:02:35 Julia

Of course, it's very different when you come directly from university and you are much younger and you don't know about quite a lot of things and you have no experience with quite a few other things. [Tim: uh huh]

00:02:50 Julia

And so, you tend not to consider things you would consider nowadays on one hand, and on the other hand you can do things without thinking sometimes, which makes it easier. So, so, it's easier [Tim chuckling] and it's harder, at the same time and, and that is something that I would say.

00:03:06 Tim

Yeah.

00:03:09 Julia

I, for, for, for myself, I would say I have a, a much clearer idea of what interpreting is nowadays, of course, I should have. [both laughing]

00:03:19 Julia

I have a clearer idea of signing it. Also of the Deaf Community, of course, but also of the hearing community, because along the way you get so much, so much information and experience in different situations that it just builds up to where you are after a couple of years.

00:03:34 Julia

So that's it for me. And at that point, of course, when I started interpreting, as there were so few interpreters around, people were asked to do assignments you wouldn't send them to nowadays. So, nowadays you would... and that is a very good thing… [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:03:54 Julia

…consider more if a person is able to do a job you send them to. [Tim: yeah] And when I was a young interpreter, we had to do everything, so to say, every thematic field, different types of assignments, and…

00:04:09 Julia

I wouldn't recommend young interpreters to, to do as many different things as we did at that time. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:04:17 Julia

That is a personal thing. And yeah, that is also quite a bridge to, to the society thing.

00:04:22 Julia

You can nowadays plan things better ahead because there are more interpreters to choose from. It is theoretically possible to find the right interpreter for the right assignment.

00:04:36 Julia

Which doesn't always happen as, as we all know, [Tim: sure] unfortunately. That is something I, I really wish for, for the future that, that contractors start thinking a bit more about which interpreter could be suitable for which interpreting assignment and not take anybody because that doesn't serve anybody as well. It doesn't serve the interpreter, it doesn't serve the contractor. It doesn't serve the people in the interpreting setting and so on.

00:05:05 Julia

Yes, and also what is also very different from my starting days is of course the payment [Tim chucking] because at that time it wasn't possible to live from interpreting. [Tim: yeah] It was then a situation where it was struggle to get funding and it was a struggle to have fees which would make it possible to work on it full time. That same fully has changed.

00:05:30 Julia

And let me think is there anything else? Well…

00:05:32 Julia

The world is different as well, of course. [chuckles] [Tim: yeah]

00:05:39 Tim

You say your view on interpreting itself is different. [Julia: mm-hmm]

00:05:44 Tim

What? What is different?

00:05:45 Julia

I think…

00:05:48 Julia

My idea of interpreting directly after finishing my, my education was more of a linguistic perspective on a way that you have to have something in one language, and it has to equal what comes up in the other language.

00:06:11 Julia

And I was also more in the view that there must be perfect solution for everything and only one solution that that would be the right thing.

00:06:25 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:06:25 Julia

More about equivalence, well, which is of course a, a perspective that has its value, and I still consider equivalence very, very important. But nowadays I would in many situations have a more holistic view and I have the idea of communication first, and the idea of everybody being happy with what happens.

00:06:50 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:06:51 Julia

And so that, especially for Community interpreting and for dialogue interpreting that it should be a natural situation.

00:07:03 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:07:04 Julia

And that sometimes needs interpretations that mean the same and have a functional equivalence, but not a linguistic equivalence [Tim: yeah] in all cases. So that is something that you have to learn to let go the idea that of, of, that A has to be B and knowing that A can be B… B1 or B2 or B3 or whatever.

00:07:27 Julia

And the most important thing is that the information is given, and that people get along and that communication works.

00:07:33 Tim

Yeah.

00:07:34 Julia

I hope that was somehow understandable. [laughing]

00:07:38 Tim

Ohh yeah, perfectly. That's, that's a nice way of summarizing the way a lot of us experienced interpreters feel. Like you say there's a, there's a place for each of those views linguistically as well as holistically. And as interpreters, we have to decide… that, that's a responsibility we have to take on to decide which is appropriate for that moment for that context, yeah.

00:08:02 Julia

Definitely. And, and there's something else that comes to my mind also.

00:08:07 Julia

In my early days, there was still very much the idea of the invisible, invisible interpreter around, so that you have to go to, to interpreting settings and you must not be seen, and you must not be there as a person and everything around that. [both chuckling]

00:08:23 Julia

So, I think you have to make the experience that sometimes it's just not possible to be invisible and that it doesn't serve the situation when somebody talks to you and you ignore them. [both chuckling] And that is something that is you have to experience.

00:08:39 Tim

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

00:08:42 Tim

I don't know why, but just now when you mentioned this that we've all talked about it for many, many years. But I wonder how much that was influenced by a hearing perspective because in many situations I've been told by… Say, I've come to an event as an interpreter. There's an audience, there's a stage.

00:09:03 Tim

And I'm told, “Oh we've put you here at the back of the room in this seat next to this row where the deaf people will be. So, you're back here that way you won't distract from the stage.”

00:09:14 Tim

It's interesting because as an interpreter, we immediately think, well, I need to be up there. So, you know, they can see you in the presentations and everything all at the same time. But I wonder if the hearing perspective is also, we need to be invisible. And so, they put us back there. I wonder how much that has influenced us in the early days as well.

00:09:33 Julia

As for stage interpreting, I think it might have influenced us because of course there was no idea of real accessibility and [Tim: hmm] uh, the need to have interpreters visible so, so that definitely is a point.

00:09:51 Julia

But as for dialogue, dialogue interpreting situations, I think it was just more the, the idea of the interpreter model. What is the the English term for it and the…

00:10:04 Julia

The conduit model, [Tim: Yes. mm-hmm] isn't it? [Tim chuckling: Yeah] Yeah. So that was something that influenced us also that it… We were just like a, like a channel where information went through us.

00:10:15 Tim

Yeah, that robot, machine, or conduit…

00:10:18 Julia

Right.

00:10:19 Tim

…idea, yeah.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:10:21 Tim

I don't want to be misunderstood, so please let's spread the passion for our profession. Let's support each other as much as we can. Check out the links in the show notes to share and support the podcast. Thank you. Let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:10:38 Tim

So, you mentioned before that there is a kind of an umbrella organization, but there are also regional organizations for sign language interpreters. Are they connected? Are they branches or are they all separate? And why is that?

00:10:54 Julia

Mm-hmm.

00:10:56 Julia

I think first of all…

00:10:59 Julia

It just has historic reasons that sign language interpreting just came up in different places which were often connected [Tim: mm-hmm] to big cities or to areas where, uh, we, we, we had deaf schools or deaf organizations. And there was a need for interpreting. So, in, in different regions associations were set up.

00:11:21 Julia

And then some time later the, the interpreters at that point decided that it would be good to unite and form an umbrella organization. So, then the, the most common thing was to be a member of your regional association and through that be a member of the umbrella organization. That is theoretically a very good model, I think, because you can depict what happens nationwide and that is very important as much of the legislation is, is a national thing. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:11:49 Julia

As we, we are, uh, federal states, of course in, in, in Germany. So, we also have regional distinctions and, and to, to go further, sometimes also different, different cities that for some things like interpreting at parents’ assemblies.

00:12:06 Julia

It's very different in the different places, how, how that is arranged, how interpreters are paid. So, you need to have the connection to what happens regionally and you have to have a connection to what happens nationwide. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:12:18 Julia

So, the idea is a very good thing.

00:12:20 Julia

The only thing is that of course, if an organization is very big, it's sometimes difficult to, to make sure that everybody follows the same direction and has the same ideas of how things have to be done. [Tim: mm-hmm] And so in the end, not all our regional associations are members of the National Association. [Tim: aha, yeah, yeah]

00:12:40 Tim

It's always harder to get a group to agree, then one or two people to agree.

00:12:45 Julia

Definitely.

00:12:46 Tim

Yeah.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:12:52 Tim

You've already mentioned the development of the interpreting education in Germany. Were there certain events that you see as a point in the history of sign language interpreting that really caused a shift or influenced the development of sign language interpreting in Germany?

00:13:12 Julia

Let me think back.

00:13:14 Julia

Well of course, one very crucial point was this already mentioned here of 1996, when it became possible to, to study interpreting. [Tim: mm-hmm] Because that induced a lot of changes, and it induced a different self-picture of what interpreting is and it led to the establishment of different courses in, in different areas around Germany. So that was a very important point. Many other things that happened in the 90s also.

00:13:47 Julia

There were quite a lot of important steps done like there was the first bilingual education for, for deaf school children established and, and so a lot of things happened. then the next.

00:14:01 Julia

Then the next thing I would say was of course also the recognition of sign language.

00:14:11 Julia

Because then through legislation, it was guaranteed that interpreting would be funded in in several areas, [Tim: mm-hmm] and that was an important thing. Then…

00:14:23 Julia

I think that are the two most important [Tim: mm-hmm] moments in history so far. There will be more, [both chuckling slightly] I guess. But they, they, they set the way for, for a lot of things that came [Tim: yeah] afterwards.

00:14:35 Tim

What was it about the 1990s that started that? What was going on in society at that time?

00:14:42 Julia

Uhm.

00:14:44 Julia

I think it was mostly about…

00:14:46 Julia

The right people with the right vision being in the right place, [Tim: mm-hmm] because many of those things happened around the area of Hamburg. Where they were just as well on, on, on part of the, the deaf community as on the hearing community. That is the professors who work at the university.

00:15:05 Julia

As from the, the parents of deaf children, they also they, they were connected in a way, and many of them had the idea that, that things had to change. [Tim: mm-hmm] And then of course before that we had the influence from, from the US, from, from Stokoe and all the linguistic research that had been taken place. [Tim: Yeah]

00:15:25 Julia

So, that was the moment when the idea of sign language linguistics and everything connected to it finally in full force came over. [Tim: hmm] And then quite a lot of developments had been started at that point.

00:15:42 Tim

Yeah, yeah.

00:15:43 Julia

And I don't know about society well…

00:15:47 Julia

Just coming back to your question, I mean it, it was a period or, a time where quite a lot of things changed and also the… for, for Germany we, the, the different parts of Germany came together around that time. [Tim: yeah]

00:16:00 Julia

…more or less, was a bit before that of course, [Tim: sure] but, but it, it, it was a time of, of change [Tim: yeah] and of new ideas so…

00:16:09 Tim

Sure. So, a time of change which allowed these new ideas, places where people were starting to become more open minded about change, and willingness, and seeing the possibilities.

00:16:21 Julia

Yeah, yeah. And maybe also sometimes as, as then the political situation in general in Europe became more stable, that there was just more [Tim: hmm] space to think of other things and to, to put politics aside and to, to concentrate on also on the social sector, so to say. [Tim: yeah] But that's just a theory. [both chuckle]

00:16:41 Tim

Of course, but that's what we can do when we're talking. [Julia: mm-hmm]

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:16:44 Tim

I'd like to give a shout out to one of my newest supporters in Buy Me A Coffee, my former professor and now friend Doctor Carol Patrie. She supported me and gave me some wonderful words of encouragement and I quote, “Your work is amazing. I was honored to be interviewed by you. Thank you so much. The Interpreter's Workshop is a fascinating and valuable contribution to our field. Kudos.”

00:17:12 Tim

So much love from listeners like you. Thank you again, Carol, for the kind words. Now let's get back to the episode.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:17:23 Tim

So, you became an interpreter just by chance, really. What did your family think about that? [Julia chuckles] Or your friends when if you didn't know there was such a thing as, you know, the profession of sign language interpreting, what did they think?

00:17:35 Julia

But of course, they didn't have any idea either. [both chuckling] So…

00:17:41 Julia

What did they say? I think, umm…

00:17:44 Julia

As for my friends, they always found it very interesting [Tim: mm-hmm] because there was something, something new and something different, and my my friends...

00:17:52 Julia

…all went to university, and we all had our different areas. So, [Tim: yeah] it was just “as it was”, so to say. [chuckling] [Tim: sure] And only later they, when I was working in the profession, they really grasped what it meant and how it was. And, and then later on one, one funny thing is that I, I have a friend who I was always very impressed about the many different kinds of different information interpreters gather, and she always said, “Well, now that I know that you're a sign language interpreter, if I ever go to Who Wants To Be A Millionaire, I will take you as a ‘telephone Joker.’” [both laughing] And I was, I was very afraid she would really do it because I didn't want to, but…

00:18:37 Julia

[both still laughing] That's, that's, that's for my friends and for my family…

00:18:43 Julia

Well I, I think for family it's more difficult to understand what sign language interpreting really means. [Tim: yeah]

00:18:50 Julia

Because they, they don't see that much of the day-to-day work and they are also from a different generation in, in many cases. [Tim: mm-hmm] So it's more difficult for them to understand. But I think they, for them the most important thing was that I will be working in an area which fulfills me, so to say.

00:19:09 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:19:09 Julia

And which gives me, me a life that I want to have and so, and they, they are very happy about me being an interpreter, I think. [both laugh]

00:19:18 Tim

Yeah, yeah, that's good.

00:19:20 Tim

Yeah, it, it is interesting how being a non-CODA that our parents don't normally see us doing our work.

00:19:27 Julia

Mm-hmm.

00:19:27 Tim

And they don't experience it, so they don't. They can't grasp everything of what we do.

00:19:33 Julia

Yes, that's true. They don't have any examples of it themselves. [Tim: mm-hmm] They have never had any deaf colleagues at work, so they have not seen interpreters there. And as most interpreting situations are closed doors, they, they just don't experience it.

00:19:47 Julia

Some years ago, I when I was working in a theater I, I got tickets for my, my, my father and gave them to him.

00:19:56 Julia

And said, [both chuckling] “Well, please come and watch me do my work.”

00:20:00 Julia

And so, I introduced it to him.

00:20:02 Tim

Yeah.

00:20:05 Tim

That leads me to a question that I've, I've often thought and wondered what other interpreters say. So, it's a two-part question. Actually, it's the same question, but I would like 2 answers. The first one is the short answer that you would normally say to hearing people when it's kind of like small talk.

00:20:24 Tim

And the other one is a longer one that you would actually be able to explain the answer. And the question is…

00:20:32 Tim

What is sign language interpreting?

00:20:34 Julia

Mm-hmm.

00:20:34 Julia

I would say sign language interpreting means that two people come together of, of…  No, I wouldn't say that. I would say different. [both laughing] Let's start again. Umm…

00:20:49 Julia

I would usually not say what is sign language interpreting. I would usually say what a sign language interpreter does. [Tim: mm-hmm] And then I would say sign language interpreter interprets between people who are hearing and people who are Deaf.

00:21:06 Julia

And make sure that they can communicate with each other. [Tim: mm-hmm] I think that's more or less what I would say always depending a bit on the situation or I would sometimes also say, yeah, I I would say something in, in, in similar words probably. [Tim: yeah]

00:21:23 Julia

And the longer version, as I'm an interpreter, I have to ask, who am I talking to? Who is my audience, [Tim laughs] my recipient. I have to, yeah. Tune it according to who I'm talking to.

00:21:39 Tim

Yeah, exactly. We're kind of different in each area. Yeah, that makes sense.

00:21:43 Julia

Yeah, because that is also something you asked me earlier. What is different for me now after 20 years of interpreting as compared to when I was a young interpreter that I have a, I think I hopefully do really have it, I have a clearer view of who is communicating and to has which needs to be catered to and so how language has to be adapted according to whom I talk to. [Tim: yeah] And that is also something I try to to teach my students that they always have to think. Who am I talking to? Who is the person? [Tim: mm-hmm] What do they need and, and how can I make communication work? And so, if I answer the question, of course, it, the answer should depend on who I'm talking to. [chuckles]

00:22:26 Tim

Yeah.

00:22:27 Julia

So, who am I talking to?

00:22:29 Tim

To your students.

00:22:31 Julia

My students.

00:22:33 Julia

First semester or different semester? [chuckles slightly]

00:22:38 Tim

First semester.

00:22:39 Julia

OK.

00:22:41 Julia

So…

00:22:41 Julia

You know…

00:22:42 Julia

I would then probably say something like sign language interpreting is taking an information that is given either in sign language or in spoken language and convey it in the other language in a way that the information is given, that the cultural aspects are considered, and that communication is established between two parties. [Tim chuckles]

00:23:13 Julia

Which isn't that much longer, [Tim: no] but maybe a bit more precise.

00:23:18 Tim

Yeah, yeah. And how do you want your students to answer you at the end of their studies? [Julia: mm-hmm]

00:23:26 Tim

The same question, of course. [Julia: mm-hmm]

00:23:29 Julia

Hopefully they will say something like umm…

00:23:32 Julia

So, so sign language interpreting is a task where you try to bring people together [chuckles] in a way that they can communicate with each other without barriers and this, this includes people who use sign language on one side and people who use spoken language on the other side in… It can be single persons. It can be groups of persons and in this process the sense of utterances has to be established and transferred and cultural specificities have to be taken into account.

00:24:11 Julia

Sign language interpreting can take place in very different settings and then has different focus points, so to say, on what is most important in each situation. So, it's a complex task which is never the same every day. [both chuckling]

00:24:29 Julia

So more or less that, that was not very on the point, but I, I think I hope it comprised quite a lot of ideas that have to be in it. [Tim: yeah, yeah]

00:24:40 Julia

And something else just came to my mind, which is, is connected to what I want to answer my students when they leave university and what I want them to know is…

00:24:50 Julia

In Germany we have a distinction between being a freelancer and being self-employed. [Tim: hmm] It's a bit difficult because the confusing part is that with English language getting into [Tim chuckling] all other languages around the world, people in Germany always tend to speak about freelancers.

00:25:10 Julia

Meaning the English term freelancer. [Tim: uh-huh] But theoretically we have a different term in German. Uh which is Freelancer and which means not being self-employed.

00:25:22 Tim

Uh-huh.

00:25:23 Julia

And so, if you if you work, if you're not employed in a company, but how did you phrase it earlier, if you are not employed but just go there for single assignments?

00:25:33 Tim

Ohh, I said it in a non-traditional way. I said like you're paid by invoice.

00:25:39 Julia

Paid by invoice. Yeah. [Tim: Yeah] So being a freelancer does not necessarily mean that you, that you're paid by invoice, but it means that you're a member of a certain group of professions.

00:25:51 Julia

Or you belong to this group of professions and this group of professions is defined in a law and it says that it's a profession which is based on a special qualification or a creative talent, [Tim: mm-hmm] and the important thing is that it's a service that is done which has to benefit, as well, the persons you work for, and the persons who contract you as the society.

00:26:17 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:26:17 Julia

And that is one of the important aspects of this being a, a freelancer which is freiberufler in German [slightly chuckles] and…

00:26:26 Julia

That you always have to keep in mind that what you're doing is for the people present in this situation and also the people who are paying for it, but also for the community in general. [Tim: mm-hmm] And that is something that I want them to take away that what they do impacts not only people there, but also impacts the deaf community in general, it also impacts the, umm, interpreters community, it impacts the whole society and so this is something that I want them to, to have in their minds and that is something that is very closely connected for me to the idea of what is signing, interpreting. [Tim: yeah, yeah]

00:27:00 Julia

That it's not just mere interpreting, but there is something else to it. [both laugh]

00:27:06 Tim

That's wonderful. That's something that I was taught as well as taught as a teacher. [Julia: mm-hmm]

00:27:12 Tim

I'm a little jealous that you have that term because [both chuckling] you can explain it easier in German then I have to explain it in English. Wow, that's nice. [Julia: mm-hmm, yeah]

00:27:22 Julia

I really like that. And the, the difficulty is that it's difficult to grasp this term because it's always confused in the general public because people have a different view of what it is. Well, it's similar to most people do not know the difference between interpreting.

00:27:34 Julia

And translating and that they will just use the terminology that isn't right. [Tim: mm-hmm]

00:27:39 Tim

Yes, exactly. Yeah.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:27:46 Tim

Wow, so much information all wrapped up into one episode, so let me try to summarize.

00:27:54 Tim

So, apparently it is easier to be a new interpreter because we're ignorant of everything that we should be thinking about. But it's harder because we don't know enough.

00:28:05 Tim

It's hard to know everything there is to know about interpreting until you're in the situation and you realize there are so many intricate details that could influence how you interpret someone's intentions, how you may misspeak and throw everything off.

00:28:23 Tim

And when you realize that it's people's lives that we are in the middle of, and it's not about us, but what it's about, is the big picture for them and our one little step our butterfly wings will ripple into space and affect so many others. Oh, did I just mix a metaphor, cultural understanding, all mixed into one sentence so that it's misunderstood?

00:28:50 Tim

Well, at least my intentions were good.

00:28:53 Tim

So, the next point [coughs-after the joke] we do get a lot of information. We store so much in our tiny little minds as interpreters because we are experiencing so many things so many times with so many people. That's why we do self-care. But it's also a positive and advantage for us, when we're interpreting, but when we're out of interpreting as well.

00:29:18 Tim

It helps us become more knowledgeable about the world around us and about people that matter. Sometimes we realize is non-CODAs, we have a special place in the interpreting field as well. We have that unique position where that people around us that are close to us don't always understand what it is we do, and many times we just don't explain it.

00:29:38 Tim

We just let it go because the more experience we become, the more we realize how complex it is and how hard it is to explain it to someone who, who has not experienced it.

00:29:55 Tim

Hmm. Interpreting, you gotta love it, hate it, or just have good intentions. It's all about timing. Whether you're at the beginning or at the, hmm, let's say, the middle, try not to be misunderstood. Just keep calm, keep interpreting the good intentions.

00:30:15 Tim

I'll see you next week. Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:30:54]