IW 110: Interview Julia Cramer Part 1: What Do You Want to Be, Doctor, Lawyer, Interpreter?

What d'ya want? What d'ya want? What d'ya really REALLY want?

This is the first episode of the four-part series with our guest Julia Cramer. She tells us about the working conditions for sign language interpreters in Germany giving us details concerning education, employment, pay, and organizations. She also shares her entry into our profession and the reasons for being a German Sign Language Interpreter.

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Transcript

IW 110: Interview Julia Cramer Part 1: What Do You Want to Be, Doctor, Lawyer, Interpreter?

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS]

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com.

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:34 Tim

And now the quote of the day by American bestselling author Norman Vincent Peale.

00:00:42 Tim

“The great secret of getting what you want from life is to know what you want and believe you can have it.”

00:00:51 Tim

So, what do you want? What do you want? What do you really, really want?

00:00:55 Tim

And now that some people are thinking, what does that mean, and others are rolling your eyes because I just quoted the Spice Girls.

00:01:04 Tim

So, why did you want to become an interpreter? Becoming a sign language interpreter? We've all thought about. We've all answered that question, but it's nice to hear everyone's answer. Sometimes it's exactly the same or similar, and sometimes it's different. Today, our guest is from Germany.

00:01:24 Tim

Julia Cramer, and she tells us about how she became an interpreter, and she gives us all of the lowdown of what it's like to be a sign language interpreter in Germany, the working conditions, the education, what certification they might have, and much more.

00:01:43 Tim

This is the first in a four-part series, as I interview Julia Cramer to learn more and understand why she wanted, why she had the passion for our profession, let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:02:05 Tim

My guest today is Julia Cramer from Germany. She has over 20 years’ experience working as a sign language interpreter, but she doesn't just do that. She's also a trainer for sign language interpreters and works at the University of Applied Sciences in Idstein near Frankfurt.

00:02:23 Tim

Her interpreting experience is obviously a wide range in the Community, but she has a passion for theater interpreting. There's so much we need to know about Germany and the profession there. So, let's ask Julia everything she knows.

00:02:43 Tim

Welcome Julia to the podcast.

00:02:45 Julia

Thank you. I'm very happy to be here.

00:02:47 Tim

It's been a while since we met. I know I can't remember the first time, but it's probably at a conference somewhere or workshop, perhaps. So, before we get into the personal stuff, let's talk about Germany and the working conditions, the field of Sign language interpreting there. So approximately how many sign language interpreters do you have in Germany?

00:03:15 Julia

Hmm.

00:03:16 Julia

That's a bit difficult to say. We do not have a clear accreditation system here, so you don't have to be registered to work as an interpreter, and you don't have to be a member of a professional organization, so it's always an estimation and umm…

00:03:33 Tim

Yeah.

00:03:35 Julia

So, uh, we have several associations for sign language interpreters. There's one which is really big. It's an umbrella organization where several regional associations are members of and then there are several smaller regional associations. And if you put it all together, it should be something like a bit over 1000 interpreters, [Tim: mhmm] let's say 1100.

00:04:00 Julia

But as interpreters do not have to be members in an association, there can also be quite a lot of people around who, who are not in those numbers. [Tim: hmm] So, we're, we're getting closer to 1500 interpreters, I would say finally, but it's still not enough.

00:04:19 Tim

Yeah. Yeah. What is the estimated population of sign language users that we, that you would serve in Germany.

00:04:29 Julia

It's estimated there are about 80,000 deaf participants [Tim: mhmm] and around 200,000, or a bit more, who are hard of hearing [Tim: mhmm] within not very defined hearing status. So, you would know if these people use sign language or spoken language and.

00:04:47 Tim

Yeah. So yeah, it's approximately the same ratio. It seems in most countries, yeah.

00:04:54 Julia

Mhmm, yeah.

00:04:55 Tim

The demand is definitely high.

00:04:57 Julia

Absolutely.

00:05:00 Tim

We all assume that you only use German Sign Language and German, but is that true?

00:05:08 Julia

In general, yes, [both slightly chuckle] definitely we have we have one sign language and one spoken language in, in Germany. So that's a clear distinction. But of course, there are situations where other spoken or signed languages have to be used and there are still some, some people who are hard of hearing, who use some form of manually coded German, but that's not very common these days.

00:05:35 Tim

Hmm, OK.

00:05:35 Julia

And it's not a language so but I, but it's a way of working that that needs to be mentioned in this context of course.

00:05:40 Tim

Yeah, yeah, yeah. As interpreters, we have to adjust to the needs of the clients. It makes sense. Yeah.

00:05:46 Julia

Definitely.

00:05:48 Tim

With that big population, do you still have deaf schools in the regions?

00:05:52 Julia

Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

00:05:56 Julia

It, it was very different in in former times when where we had regional deaf schools and we had one big center where every deaf person had to go if they wanted to, to have a higher education. [Tim: mhmm] That was in the city of Essen and then later on, as the situation developed and improved, people could, yeah, have higher education in, in different cities as well.

00:06:20 Julia

And nowadays, as the mainstreamed education (is that the right term?)…

00:06:27 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:06:27 Julia

…is becoming more and more popular. Deaf kids sometimes go to, to hearing schools and sometimes go to deaf schools. It's a mixture.

00:06:35 Tim

Yeah. So, do they have interpreters in the mainstream schools or, and/or in the deaf schools as well?

00:06:42 Julia

Yeah, in, in, in mainstream schools, they do have. It's still sometimes a big struggle for the parents to get there because authorities tend to try to tell them that other options could be better because they have the funding in mind, [Tim: mhmm] but children can have interpreters depending on whether it's first grade school or higher educations. [Tim: mhmm] It depends if they are there are one or two interpreters very often.

00:07:10 Julia

And in deaf schools the situation, it's different. They usually don't have interpreters there as far as I know.

00:07:18 Julia

But at least in, in most of the schools signing it has arrived. Not in all there are still schools where, where, umm, spoken language is used. As far as I know. [Tim: mmm] But most schools have at least parts of sign language in their education nowadays. [Tim: hmm]

00:07:37 Tim

But sign language is recognized in Germany as an official language, or?

00:07:42 Julia

It is, it is, but it's not in the Constitution. Unfortunately, [Tim: mhmm] it's through the social law. So, in the social law they say that, that sign language can be used, and that is a an indirect recognition I would call it.

00:07:58 Tim

Yeah, that's, that's very similar to other countries as well.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:08:06 Tim

So, you don't need a certification credentials to be a sign language interpreter, but how do you work as a, an interpreter? How do you get your jobs then? Do you have agencies? Do you have word of mouth? How do you work as an interpreter?

00:08:22 Julia

Hmm.

00:08:23 Julia

First of all, I would like to add something regarding the accreditation topic. Although we don't have a clear cut system where you have to get registered to work as an interpreter, it's getting more and more common that funding bodies demand some kind of qualification. [Tim: mhmm] So, I guess there will be a situation soon where it's will be quite impossible to work without having a qualification, unless you work in private settings and people who agree to take you in. Although you don't cannot show anything on paper.

00:08:53 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:08:54 Julia

And as for jobs?

00:08:58 Julia

It's, it's, it's a mixture. It's still quite a lot of word of mouth and then there is also the possibility to if you are a member of an association, most of them have some kind of system like you can send an e-mail which is then sent out to everybody, or you can register with offices at the Deaf clubs. [Tim: mhmm]

00:09:21 Julia

That is also an option. Most Deaf clubs also have some kind of list where you can register and also some of the authorities set up lists if they want to find somebody so, they can have a look at it. And there's also some kind of registry for people working at the courts.

00:09:40 Julia

So, you can show up in several lists and it, it shouldn't be difficult to find an interpreter if you need one.

00:09:47 Tim

Yeah, yeah. Do the Deaf pay for the interpreter or is it through government funding? How? How does that work?

00:09:53 Julia

In most cases, it's government funding. Thankfully, [Tim: mhmm] it, it, doesn't work in all cases.

00:10:00 Julia

But for instance, for… if you want to go to see a doctor. If you have interpreting in a school. If you want to talk to an authority, and also in, in work life, there is an option that as for companies… We have a system here that if a company has a considerable number of employees, and if they don't employ enough people with a disability, they have to pay for it.

00:10:27 Julia

And this money that is taken, to be given back to other companies who want to have, uh, disabled employees and need funding for certain things. [Tim: mhmm] So, if you have a deaf employee, you can just register and, and say well, here's, here's my new employee. I need an interpreter. Can you please subsidize this? And then companies would get quite a bit of money.

00:10:50 Julia

And that's doesn't cover all the cost, but most of it.

00:10:53 Tim

Yeah. And so that would go for any accommodations that that employee would need, which includes a sign language interpreter at times. [Julia: Definitely.] OK, so the company does not hire the interpreter as an employee. It would just be on a, like a “invoiced basis.”

00:11:13 Julia

In most cases, yes. Um, there are big companies who have taken to, to doing this. [Tim: mhmm]

00:11:23 Julia

But you need a number of, of, of, [Tim: mhmm, hmm] deaf employees to make that work. So that's not very common.

00:11:29 Tim

Yeah, OK. And how is the education for sign language interpreters in Germany now?

00:11:37 Julia

Mhmm. That's something where, where I'm quite happy with because we, we do have a lot of options right now. It all started off in the, in the ‘90s with one university who offered a course which was Hamburg University, where, where I also studied. And nowadays there are 8 universities throughout the country… [Tim: mhmm]

00:11:56 Julia

… which offer courses you, you can attend. And so they are basically BA courses. Two of them also have MA courses and or let's say three because there's also EUMASLI. [Tim: mhmm] You might have heard of which was also partly based in Germany.

00:12:18 Tim

That's the European Masters in Sign Language Interpreting.

00:12:22 Julia

Right, right. Yes.

00:12:23 Tim

European Masters in Sign Language Interpreting.

00:12:26 Julia

And um, in addition, there's an option which was set up in, in the early stages when there weren't really universities who could teach sign language interpreting and there was a need for qualified interpreters.

00:12:40 Julia

So, there's a state exam which is offered in two cities in Germany, in Darmstadt and Nuremberg. And there you can go prove that you have the ability and then get a certification as well. So...

00:12:56 Julia

There are two different options. Go to university or have the state examination.

00:13:02 Tim

Is at state examination nation-wide?

00:13:06 Julia

It is. It is nationwide and it's on the same levels. If a funding body decides to find an interpreter, both of these would be accepted on the same level.

00:13:17 Tim

I see. And who set that up?

00:13:19 Julia

The testing it's at, it's a, it's a state body. It's the in, in Darmstadt. It's the Academy for Teachers’ Education, [Tim: mhmm] so to say. [chuckling] And they do testing for several languages and also for sign language teachers and so…

00:13:38 Julia

It's a an option to to get people qualified without having to go to university.

00:13:43 Tim

That was set up by, I guess, a committee of experts. Or how did you get that testing started?

00:13:49 Julia

That was basically before my time. [both laugh] I, I wasn't involved in that. So I don't know who had the idea how, how that was brought up, but I'm quite sure that the deaf organizations will have been forcing [Tim: mhmm] in that demanding that something would be set up and then, and they [Tim: Yeah] will most probably be have been involved in that as well.

00:14:09 Tim

Yeah.

00:14:09 Tim

But that's a that's a good option for those who are experienced, for example, CODAs, I guess, who had been working as an interpreter, but they want to be credited but yet don't want to go back to university. So, is that the avenue they could go?

00:14:25 Julia

That's it. And it was. It was meant to be for a transition period in the beginning [Tim: mhmm] until the path was there for people to, to go to university. And, but the demand is still so high [Tim: yeah] that we have the both ways in parallel.

00:14:40 Julia

And there's… I haven't heard about this, this way to be closed anyway soon. So, I guess that will be going on for quite a long time.

00:14:49 Tim

Yeah.

00:14:51 Tim

What situations are paid by the government for interpreting?

00:14:56 Tim

Are there certain situations that you still want to be acknowledged? This is, you know, they need the right to have an interpreter in this situation. Are there still some missing pieces?

00:15:06 Julia

There are missing pieces, of course.

00:15:10 Julia

Everything that has to do with basic needs is covered. I would say like going to the doctors, getting a basic education.

00:15:18 Julia

If you go to a court setting that is also included in that, but everything that goes a bit further is, is not included in that. So, everything's private like umm...

00:15:30 Julia

If you want to be active in a political party [Tim: mhmm] and have to attend meetings for that, for instance, or if you want to have more education than the one you have, that qualifies you to work in in the area you work in. Or…

00:15:48 Julia

What else? Contact to other people. Everything that, that would make the world more accessible. [Tim lightly chuckles: yeah] And, and make it possible for, for Deaf and hearing people to communicate more. That, that is the different part the difficult part in it, yeah.

00:16:04 Tim

Hmm, that sounds similar to other countries as well, yeah. [Julia: mhmm]

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:16:09 Tim

Thank you to everyone who supported the podcast with Buy Me a Coffee. Check out the links in the show notes and see the new content that supporting members can see. New tips, outtakes and just Tim’s musings. Thank you. Let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:16:25 Tim

Now that we kind of have some background on the interpreting field and the profession in Germany…

00:16:33 Tim

Let's go a little more personal about you.

00:16:38 Julia

Mhmm. Do I have to be scared? [both chuckle]

00:16:42 Tim

[sarcastically] No, not at all. [coughs] [Julia: OK] So, when and why did you start interpreting?

00:16:50 Julia

Yeah, that that's a good question. And, and it's not easy to answer that very shortly. [both laughing]

00:16:58 Tim

That's OK.

00:17:00 Julia

Great. So, so, so it all started off when I finished my school and I, I was a bit overwhelmed by all the possibilities in the world where I could go, what I could do, [Tim chuckling] and I was interested in a lot of things. So, I thought about, umm,…

00:17:17 Julia

…becoming a doctor or becoming a lawyer, or a teacher, or, or an interpreter for a spoken language, or whatever. [Tim: Yeah] And then I came to a point where I thought, well, I cannot decide it right away. I have to do something else. Then I had a training for, for a year in, in the first place which focused on foreign languages. [Tim: mhmm]

00:17:41 Julia

And working in an office area and which gave me a bit of time and I wa,s I was very lucky for that because after that I…

00:17:51 Julia

Again, started looking around - what I could do and went to the university in Hamburg and that was in the year of 1996.

00:17:59 Tim

Mhmm.

00:17:59 Julia

And right in that year, first steady course at University of Hamburg was established. [Tim: mmm] So, if I hadn't had that year in between, I would have missed it. [Tim laughing] I would have been too early. So, so, I went to the university and there was an, an information setting on a, session on what was going to be offered in the next academic year, they said, “Oh well, we have this brand new course. It's about sign language interpreting.”

00:18:29 Julia

And I had never heard about that before.

00:18:32 Tim

Hmm.

00:18:33 Julia

So umm, I, I didn't have any contact to, to the deaf community before that. Of course, I knew there were deaf people and I knew that there was sign language, but I, I didn't know that there was a, a job you could do in this area and work as an interpreter. And, um, well, the way they depicted it, it, I thought, well, that's the thing for me.

00:18:53 Julia

Because high on my list was also that of course I wanted to work with languages as I loved languages and I wanted to do something that is very useful and makes a difference. And [Tim: yeah] has a positive impact on the world, so to say.

00:19:09 Julia

So, I thought, well, this brings it all together in a way. [Tim: mhmm] And then then I got some more information and found out what is, what is sign language. I, I went to the university and…

00:19:20 Julia

At that point, they also had a course which had started a bit earlier, which was not for interpreting but sign language studies in general.

00:19:29 Tim

Mm-hmm.

00:19:30 Julia

So, So, I got. I went there, I talked to people and got an impression of how it all looks, how it works. How, how it could go on for me. And then I decided to become a sign language interpreter [Tim: mhmm] and that's it. [chuckles]

00:19:43 Tim

Wow. [Julia: mhmm]

00:19:45 Tim

So, it, it had nothing to do with family or friends.

00:19:47 Julia

Not in my case, no.

00:19:51 Tim

‘96 that was. So, when, when did you start the actual course of sign language? Was it the next year?

00:19:57 Julia

That was exactly that year because it, it was possible to, to start the studies without knowing a single sign in sign language. [both laugh] So, I didn't have to do a preparatory course. I could start right away and then I just went there and started in October of 1996.

00:20:14 Tim

And how long was it? Was it three years or four?

00:20:17 Julia

Umm...

00:20:18 Julia

It was designed to take 4 1/2 years at that time. [Tim: OK] It was before the BA, MA period. So, it was a diploma you would get, then, and then you, you had nine semesters, classes. And as it was very common at that time, everybody started, for quite a bit longer. [both laughing] So you can, you just repeat classes and do other things and, and just get more information, and get settled. And I also decided to, to study English, umm, umm, during that time.

00:20:52 Julia

So, so, I went to other classes as well and then in the end… [Tim: yeah] It was a bit more than nine semesters. I won't say the exact number. [both laughing]

00:21:01 Tim

No, I understand. My first degree was more than the four years. Definitely. Wow. So, you learned sign language at the university as you were going through this course, these courses.

00:21:12 Julia

That's right. That's right. In, in my group, I think there were…

00:21:17 Julia

…only four or five people at all who, who knew some sign language. And those were people who had before attended this other group of people who had sign language studies and then decided to switch and, and do the other course. But most of the others didn't know sign language at that point.

00:21:35 Tim

So, no CODAs in your group.

00:21:37 Julia

‘parently not. I think if I if I think back not a single one. And, and that is interesting because for instance in the groups that I now teach at the university where I work, we have quite a lot of CODAs. So, the situation has changed in that regard.

00:21:55 Tim

Yeah, I wonder why that is.

00:21:57 Julia

I think that…

00:21:59 Julia

One thing is that at that point signing… it was not so well known in the general public, so, so many people who decided to start it didn't…

00:22:10 Julia

Just… Just didn't have any contact with the deaf community before. So [Tim: mhmm] that's one thing.

00:22:19 Julia

And nowadays, I, I can’t, uh, can't find a good word for it, but there is also more of a demand for real qualifications. So, so, maybe it's just that, that CODAs who would work without a qualification in former times now just realize that it would be good thing to have one as well. So, they just come to the universities as well.

00:22:41 Tim

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:22:49 Tim

So, when you first started interpreting compared to now, what do you see differently?

00:22:55 Julia

You mean personally? For my work as an interpreter or with the look at the society?

00:23:02 Tim

Yes. [both laughing]

00:23:03 Tim

Both.

00:23:05 Julia

OK.

00:23:08 Julia

Yeah. When, when I look back to, to the time when I started interpreting, (I will start with the personal part)… [Tim: sure]

00:23:16 Julia

Of course, it's very different when you…

00:23:20 Julia

Come directly from university and you are much younger and you don't know about quite a lot of things and you have no experience with quite a few other things. [Tim: mhmm] Umm, and so you…

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:23:37 Tim

Oh! What was she gonna say? Hmm, I guess you'll have to wait until next week to listen to the answers about how the profession has changed for her personally and for society in Germany. But until then, let's take a look back at what we heard today. Some of the highlights are:

00:23:57 Tim

Definitely there is still high demand for sign language interpreting in Germany. They have an organization that is an umbrella for the nation and there are smaller organizations kind of connected to it in each of the regions.

00:24:13 Tim

Sign language recognition is there under the social work law. However, just like in many countries, sign language recognition does not necessarily mean full access. The right to an interpreter when you need one.

00:24:32 Tim

For certain things, yes, but not for everything. So, such recognition still allows for barriers in communication for the deaf communities that we serve.

00:24:43 Tim

However, recognition of sign language or recognition even of human rights to access to information is part of the process of creating awareness, creating an environment where, even though you may not have a national certification exam for all interpreters or a requirement to have such a credential for working as a sign language interpreter. That may not be there, but the little seeds that we plant with laws about awareness of signed languages or interpreting, or the right to access of communication of your own language, those create an environment where people start to change their minds and realize, “OK, I need to be qualified. I need to have an education.”

00:25:41 Tim

“I need to show that I am able and capable of doing this service in the right way”, whether they've always been qualified or not. Having that proof is a way to stimulate the profession and to come together in a unified way which lifts up the profession and gives us all strength when we're fighting barriers of working conditions, of pay, of education, or for being allies to the communities we serve.

00:26:16 Tim

So, we heard a lot of positive points that Germany has for sign language interpreting. They have sign language education. They have eight education programs throughout the country and they're moving forward in many ways.

00:26:32 Tim

Soon we'll learn even more in the next parts of this interview. Until then, keep calm.

00:26:40 Tim

Keep interpreting what you really, really want. I'll see you next week. Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:27:23]