IW 94: Interview Amaresh Gopalakrishnan Part 4: Oh Mama-Cultural Influences on Wobbly Interpretations

Weebles wobble...NO!! That's not appropriate.

Do you know the head gestures of India?

CODA sign language interpreter, Amaresh Gopalakrishnan explains those, other gestures, and languages and how they influence working Indian sign language interpreters. We discuss professionalism, research, his ongoing film projects, and more. Enjoy this end of the interview with Amaresh.

Transcript

IW 94: Interview Amaresh Gopalakrishnan Part 4: Oh Mama-Cultural Influences on Wobbly Interpretations

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS] 

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:34 Tim

And now the quote of the day by Edward T Hall, Jr., American anthropologist and cross-cultural researcher. He has given much to our profession by developing the concept of proxemics and giving us what's called the Hall zones, his quote…

00:00:55 Tim

“The essence of cross-cultural communication has more to do with releasing responses than with sending messages. It is more important to release the right response than to send the right message.”

00:01:13 Tim

In this last episode with Amaresh, we get some good advice on how to do linguistic research. We learn more about the culture of India.

00:01:24 Tim

The languages of India and how that influences the work of sign language interpreters there. We learn about some of the gestures that India uses to help us on our cultural journey in our work. We get many tidbits of advice for each other and for the next generation.

00:01:44 Tim

And we get to learn a little bit more of how Amaresh's passion continues.

00:01:51 Tim

Let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:01:56 Tim

So, from your research to help create this sign language dictionary in India, what advice would you give countries who are thinking of doing the same thing but haven't quite got there yet?

00:02:09 Amaresh

So very good question. First thing I would advise is to have a proper linguist working on your team. [Tim: mhmm] A linguist, uh, a person who has a linguistic background, who knows how to do linguistic research.

00:02:22 Amaresh

Need to have   person like that on your team.

00:02:25 Amaresh

Secondly, the way we did our research, you know to, to produce the dictionary. We first listed all the English words. [Tim: mhmm] Put them into different categories and stuff like that. And then we went out to, you know, collect the sites for those words. [Tim: Yeah] Looking back, I think that was not the best way to do it.

00:02:46 Amaresh

After I did my linguistic master’s in linguistics and stuff like that. So, you learn how to do linguistic research, you know so. [Tim: mhmm]

00:02:58 Amaresh

First thing, you know, is to collect data.

00:03:03 Amaresh

As much of data as possible, you.

00:03:04 Amaresh

Are doing in this sense, show the sign languages, you know, people communicating the sign languages, film that and have that data. [Tim: mhmm] So, from that data you need to pick out the terms and signs, and phrases and stuff like that and build the lexicon. [Tim: yeah]

00:03:22 Amaresh

So, that's how you need to do that. So, we did that, did it the reverse order. [Tim: mmm]

00:03:27 Amaresh

So, you actually have to do it in the reverse order, first you need to collect the people conversing. You need to collect data, sign language data.

00:03:37 Amaresh

And then from there you need to, like document what are the different signs that the community has and stuff like that along with all the variations, yeah.

00:03:45 Tim

Yeah. So, you're looking more at how the signs are used in that context compared to just the sign by itself or the lexical item by itself, right?

00:03:56 Amaresh

Correct. [Tim: OK]

00:03:56 Amaresh

I was working with the Central Institute of Indian languages [Tim: mhmm] for a few years.

00:04:03 Amaresh

So, we did a lot of research and analysis with Indian Sign Language. We did a lot of that. [Tim: mhmm] So, this was the method that I used. So, we…

00:04:12 Amaresh

Still, we have to have, uh, we have to have controlled data set. [Tim: mhmm]

00:04:18 Amaresh

So instead of having a data set, which you can’t control in a sense, uh, just, uh, filming conversations around and ad hoc conversations that is, you don't control the data set. So. So we had a data set which would control in the sense that we had a few stories.

00:04:35 Amaresh

Like children's stories… and basic folk stories and all that.

00:04:41 Amaresh

And we asked the deaf people to sign those stories. [Tim: mhmm]

00:04:47 Amaresh

Yeah. And then try and analyze uh, how languages and what, what other lexicons and all that. You could do that. But that also limits the research. But if you don't want your research limited, then you just go ad hoc. You just collect data in choose places and then… [Tim: yeah]

00:05:07 Amaresh

…research and analyze on that. Yeah.

00:05:09 Tim

OK. Now in India, you have several different spoken languages as well, correct? [Amaresh: Yes] Did you see an influence from those spoken languages on the regional signing, phrases, or what have you?

00:05:25 Amaresh

That's a very interesting question. I haven't really found any influence of spoken language into sign language, but there are a lot of gestures you know, like in which the general community uses, which gets into the sign language. For example, [Tim: mhmm] in a state called Kerala in the southern part of India.

00:05:46 Tim

How do you spell that?

00:05:49 Amaresh

Is spelled as K-e-r-a-l-a.

00:05:56 Tim

OK. Mhmm.

00:05:57 Amaresh

So, there in the South, Kerala, South India, people actually do this gesture.

00:06:05 Amaresh

So, they do this gesture to say, to negate something.

00:06:11 Amaresh

“No, he did not come. It is not that. It is not to…” That is, uh, to negate something.

00:06:17 Tim

Kind of a American Sign Language S that explodes outward into a claw.

00:06:22 Amaresh

It's a flat “O”. It's a flat-O.

00:06:25 Tim

OK.

00:06:26 Amaresh

Yeah, you just push your hand, you thrust your hand outward and open your fingers, yeah.

00:06:31 Tim

To a “five”.

00:06:32 Amaresh

Like into a five, so it negates something. So, for example, if you ask, “Has he come?”

00:06:38 Amaresh

“No, he is not.” With this particular gesture, you know.

00:06:42 Tim

While you're saying that… and that's the hearing culture.

00:06:44 Amaresh

That's the hearing culture, actually. Yeah. [Tim: OK] So, that has spilt over into the Deaf, uh, …signing also.

00:06:50 Amaresh

So deaf people over there in that community, they when they say “no”.

00:06:54 Tim

Uh huh.

00:06:55 Amaresh

So usually in Indian Sign language. You have the 5-hand, you shake your, the 5-hand, you know? [Tim: right] You shake it like that. So that means no.

00:07:06 Amaresh

But there in that area or just people say “no” like this.

00:07:10 Tim

Uh huh. Yeah. With the [Amaresh: the flat-O] the flat O. Yeah, [Amaresh: Yes, yes, yes, yes] that's yeah. So normally the “no” is similar to Czech sign language.

00:07:18 Amaresh

Ah, I see. OK.

00:07:19 Tim

Negation.

00:07:21 Amaresh

Negation, yeah. So, that influences that. So, the influence of the local culture, uh, gesturing [Tim: Yeah] and all that.

00:07:30 Amaresh

In India, we gesture a lot, you know, you know about the Indian Head wobble. [Tim: yeah] When we speak, we gesture a lot so.

00:07:37 Tim

Do the deaf community also use the head wobble from side to side as well.

00:07:39 Amaresh

Ohh yeah. Ohh yeah. Ohh yes.

00:07:42 Tim

And does it mean the same thing?

00:07:43 Amaresh

Yes, yes, yes, definitely does. [Tim: OK] [both chuckle]

00:07:47 Amaresh

Otherwise, there'd be a lot of confusion. [both laughing]

00:07:52 Tim

Yeah, I can imagine. So, for those who don't know, what does it mean when you're wobbling your head from left to right, you know, shoulder to shoulder kind of.

00:08:01 Amaresh

OK, there are three, there are three ways. [thinking: no] There are three ways. So, first is the normal nodding is the… the normal nod [Tim: front to back] front and back and up and down. Yeah, so that's YES. [Tim: YES, OK]

00:08:16 Amaresh

Yes or something like that…

00:08:18 Amaresh

So, if you shake your head from side to side, [Tim: uh huh] that means NO. [Tim: OK]

00:08:21 Amaresh

Negation.

00:08:23 Tim

So that's similar to ours, yeah.

00:08:26 Amaresh

OK, so if wobble...

00:08:29 Tim

Wobble not just side to side, but almost kind of left and right, side to side and around, huh.

00:08:36 Amaresh

So, if you wobble, it’s, “Wow, it’s so nice” and you, you kind of, you know, your seconding, what was happening [Tim: OK] for me, that kind of thing. “Ohh very nice.” [with wobble] “Is it nice? Will it taste something? Is it nice? Is it tasty?” “Ohh, it's very tasty. Yeah.” [Tim chuckles] So, if you want to say YES you nod.

00:08:56 Amaresh

You want to say? YEAH. Then you wobble your head. [both laugh]

00:09:02 Tim

And is that pervasive throughout India or is it different in regions?

00:09:04 Amaresh

Yeah, yeah, yeah, [Tim: OK] I think it's the same all over India. I think, it’s the head wobble. Yeah. [Tim: yeah]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:09:14 Amaresh

In terms of speech and certain language, there are certain terms like uh, oh...

00:09:22 Amaresh

In India, we have different terms for family members. [Tim: mhmm]

00:09:27 Amaresh

So, for uncle, maternal uncle, we call them as Mama.

00:09:34 Tim

OK.

00:09:35 Amaresh

So, Mama is a maternal uncle.

00:09:36 Tim

OK, maternal uncle.

00:09:39 Amaresh

Yeah. So, Mama, when you say Mama, then you, usually they have the M handshape there. [Tim: OK] And they put it on their nose, MAMA, like that. Yeah. Or MAMA on the cheek. [Tim: mhmm] Yeah. So that was influenced a bit, I think. Yeah.

00:09:58 Tim

But that's meaning an uncle on your mother's side.

00:10:01 Amaresh

Correct, yes.

00:10:02 Tim

Right. OK. So that has influenced, OK, I see.

00:10:05 Amaresh

I think there are certain expressions that are also been used in sign language, I think, I uh, I can't get it off my head right now.

00:10:14 Tim

Sure, sure. [Amaresh: yeah]

00:10:17 Tim

Do you personally interpret in other languages, spoken languages rather, than English?

00:10:22 Amaresh

I could interpret, uh, in Hindi…

00:10:25 Tim

OK.

00:10:26 Amaresh

…and in Tamil fluently. Other languages I could understand, but I wouldn’t be able to voice. Yeah.

00:10:35 Tim

Yeah, I see.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:10:37 Tim

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[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:10:54 Tim

So, in India, we've already talked about how the profession is not well paid. The conditions are not as good as you would like, and you're working on those. What is the perception of our profession, sign language interpreters in India from a hearing community point of view.

00:11:15 Tim

Is it like a social worker? Or is it looked down upon as low status or?

00:11:21 Amaresh

I don't think… definitely it's not looked down upon. Definitely not. People, when I tell them I’m a sign language interpreter, they are usually quite, hmm, what can I say? They're very positive, you know, like they want to know more. They're very interested in this a professional, because…

00:11:44 Amaresh

It's very difficult for them to perceive, you know, like from [Tim: yeah] sign language, voicing and to… For them, it's they, they're not able to understand how we do it. [Tim: yeah] So, I, I don't think it's definitely not looked down upon. [Tim: OK] Many of them, of course they feel it's a kind of a social work, yes.

00:12:04 Amaresh

I would say that in more rural parts maybe. [Tim: yeah] But in urban centers, I definitely people know that it is a proper profession and I think because they know about translation services and interpretation services and stuff like that.

00:12:20 Amaresh

Probably the remote areas they, you know…

00:12:23 Amaresh

They would like you to deal with that problem in a way so they say, “Ah he’s a deaf person you have to support him.” [Tim: Yeah, yeah] Things like that.

00:12:31 Amaresh

We have, uh, instances like that. And it's also considered to be a profession. So…

00:12:38 Amaresh

People have always been…uh…

00:12:41 Amaresh

They will… They always want to know more when I tell them that I’m a sign language interpreter. “Oh, you’re an interpreter. OK, fine. That's nice.” And so they’re very…

00:12:52 Amaresh

I don't know. I don't. I can't find the word for it.

00:12:56 Tim

They're curious, or surprise.

00:12:59 Amaresh

Yeah, they were… I wouldn’t say surprised. They're definitely, you know, intrigued. [Tim: mhmm]

00:13:05 Amaresh

They’re kind of, uh, “Ooh! Interpreter! Oh, really? Look, what do you do like…” You know, they, they’re intrigued, you know, they kind of... They want to know more, and they think it's a very different field, and they're, uh, very curious. They’re very intrigued. Uh… I never have gotten, uh, negative response and negative feedback from hearing community.

00:13:30 Amaresh

So that is my personal experience. Yeah. [Tim: yeah]

00:13:33 Amaresh

But I think that, that's, that's probably the general scene over here. So, hearing people, they think that yeah, interpreting is very….uh…

00:13:44 Amaresh

…kind of specialized skilled thing that you, a person needs to do so. Very respected, of course, yeah.

00:13:51 Tim

Yeah, yeah, that's a good thing.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:13:57 Tim

So, a working interpreter in the community, what would a average week look like? What type of gigs would they have?

00:14:05 Amaresh

We have interpreters who are working in organizations and institutions as an employee kind of thing, you know? [Tim: yeah] on a salary basis. So, we have that.

00:14:17 Amaresh

So, they work in certain organizations as an interpreter. But as a freelancer, you know, for me, I don't do much of Indian Sign language interpreting. Now I just do when there's a very specific request [Tim: mhmm] and it's the main event or something.

00:14:37 Amaresh

Except for that, I really don't do much of Indian Sign interpreting.

00:14:42 Amaresh

I do more of International Sign, but, umm, I think the opportunities and work is increasing now just because of the fact that more deaf people are getting into different fields. They want to be involved, the deaf people want to be involved. So, [Tim: yeah] the demand for interpreters is increasing, yeah.

00:15:04 Tim

Yeah. So, interpreters also work in the medical setting and legal setting?

00:15:10 Amaresh

Yes, we don't have as such a kind of, uh,…

00:15:17 Amaresh

In a medical setting, we don't have an interpreter over there just for that particular setting. You don't have anything like that as yet, I think. [Tim: yeah] And when there's a request and we support them. But yes, in the educational setting, definitely so. And, uh…

00:15:34 Amaresh

In the CSO sector, definitely there are interpreters who are, you know, salaried.

00:15:41 Amaresh

They’re working regularly there. [Tim: yeah]

00:15:43 Tim

What one thing from your background would you ask interpreters to stop doing? [Amaresh chuckles: hmm] Or to improve on?

00:15:52 Amaresh

Well, I would like, rather than asking them to stop doing certain things, I'd probably ask them to be more professional. [Tim: mhmm]

00:16:01 Amaresh

Not be, you know, political. Try to be more professional, not political? Yeah.

00:16:06 Tim

Be more political or not be more…?

00:16:08 Amaresh

Just don't. Don't be political at all. Even, let's not have politics in this.

00:16:13 Amaresh

Let's not get politics in this at all. Not like we are very, the interpreters in this world... very few, you know? [Tim: yeah]

00:16:20 Amaresh

And the Deaf community needs us.

00:16:23 Amaresh

So, if you are, you know, like fighting amongst ourselves and all that. Having politics inside the whole community itself, really doesn’t help. So, I would prefer, you know like, all interpreters to be more professional and you know like to help other interpreters up. [Tim: mhmm]

00:16:41 Amaresh

You know? To help to be more positive with other interpreters, to encourage other interpreters to improve their…

00:16:49 Amaresh

I understand that, you know, you need to work. You need to earn. You need to… Yeah. You have your life and stuff like you need to take care of your life, yes.

00:17:00 Amaresh

But because of the politicizing, the whole thing, the whole professionalism’s, not nice.

00:17:06 Tim

Yeah.

00:17:07 Amaresh

Just be more professional. If you help others, then it'll definitely help you too. So, I believe in that.

00:17:14 Tim

Yeah, that's a good sentiment.

00:17:16 Amaresh

Yeah.

00:17:18 Tim

Is there one thing you would like to tell the rest of the world from the Indian Sign Language interpreter point of view?

00:17:24 Amaresh

The rest of the world in general terms are like…?

00:17:26 Tim

The rest of the interpreting world. There we go.

00:17:30 Amaresh

Well, I'd just like to welcome people all, you know, like just on a general thing. Just like to welcome everyone to India. Enjoy [both chuckle] our culture and our land and meet our interpreters. And, you know, just share. You know? Share and, uh…

00:17:50 Amaresh

What kind of message would I, would I like to give to other interpreters? Hmm. Everyone's doing a really good job and yeah, I appreciate each and every interpreter I’ve worked with. Yeah, we're doing a good job. They're doing a wonderful job and I think…uh…

00:18:07 Amaresh

The only thing I would like to say is I really appreciate everyone for their support, for their help, and, uh, my friendship. Very, very, very nice. Yeah. [Tim: Yeah, I agree] Yeah. [laughs, both laugh]

00:18:21 Tim

Amaresh, thank you very much for your time. Spending a little moment with us, throughout the world to tell us a little bit about you, a little bit about India, and the profession of sign language interpreters there.

00:18:34 Tim

Thank you very much.

00:18:36 Amaresh

Thank you very much Tim, for listening to me basically. And you're doing a wonderful job and I congratulate you for this, and wish you all the best for the future too.

00:18:47 Tim

Thank you very much and to you and everyone there.

00:18:50 Amaresh

Thank you. Bye, bye.

00:18:51 Tim

Bye, bye.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:18:58 Tim

This was quite a mix of different information for us to think about. First, if you want to research in this area, Amaresh gave you some good advice when trying to collect the data of sign language. Learning from our history and preserving our history in the stories and the language, the use of language is a wonderful thing for all of us.

00:19:25 Tim

We learned about some of the gestures and how that influences communication throughout the regions, how it influences languages, spoken and signed, and we finally understood a little bit more of the head gestures in India. That's what's so fascinating about our profession.

00:19:45 Tim

It's not only about the language that most people think of as language, it's communication, it's culture. It's so many nuanced features that we have to deal with in our work that makes it so fascinating, so wonderful, and fun, completely fun.

00:20:05 Tim

And that overrides some of the problems that we have to deal with on a regular basis. Work has to be fun, and that's what drives our passion. I would never have thought that in India I would call my Uncle Mama. Hmm.

00:20:22 Tim

It truly is an intriguing profession and we need to remember that keep that in our minds, keep that spark of excitement alive without becoming arrogant about it. Humility and excitement together is infectious. It spreads quickly. One of the advice nuggets that Amaresh gave us…

00:20:46 Tim

Was to be more professional, not be political. There is so much going on in so many things we have to fight for. Working conditions, pay respect, education, all of that is enough for us to deal with without having to deal with each other in our petty little fights or politics, it's not worth it. We need to discuss it and debate it, yes, but not make that our complete focus. I like working with pleasant people and I'm sure you do too.

00:21:18 Tim

Good advice Amaresh.

00:21:20 Tim

Many countries are working with trilingual interpreters. I know it's a hot topic in the US still.

00:21:26 Tim

But many in the world are working with multi-language interpreting. Knowing multiple languages gives a different perspective. It helps us step out of the boxes and boundaries that we've given ourselves as interpreters. Thinking, language, language, culture, culture.

00:21:47 Tim

But now we have a mix of languages, and we now start focusing more on what is the meaning.

00:21:54 Tim

How does this apply in this language and cultural area? The more languages we know, the more flexibility of meaning in our minds, the more perspectives we have.

00:22:07 Tim

But the best advice we got today was a little bit from Amaresh and a lot from his father. Amaresh, carrying on the passion, the goals that his father could not meet teaches us that not only do we need to learn from history and our mistakes, but we need to carry on the good things.

00:22:28 Tim

And to push them forward to complete projects…

00:22:32 Tim

…that are worthy.

00:22:33 Tim

So, as you're working today, think about what goals you have set and how you can teach the next generation to continue those goals. How do we do that? Not having so much politics between ourselves. Many things to think about. Thank you for a great conversation, Amaresh.

00:22:53 Tim

So, until next time, keep calm. Keep pleasantly interpreting. I'll see you next week.

00:23:00 Tim

Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:23:37]