IW 91: Interview Amaresh Gopalakrishnan Part 1: Incidental Learning - MTV is Just Music

Did you hear the latest news??! Yeah, I heard it on MTV. What?!!

Our guest regals us with his journey from childhood to professional interpreter.  He reminds us that less access to incidental learning can influence our world view. We'll learn about the project to document Indian Sign Language that he and his father were a huge part of. Amaresh Gopalakrishnan grew up as a CODA in India and found his way to our profession. This is the beginning of a 4 part interview about the sign language interpreting profession in India.

Enjoy.

Transcript

IW 91: Interview Amaresh Gopalakrishnan Part 1: Incidental Learning - MTV is Just Music

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS] 

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:34 Tim

And now the quote of the day by Daniel Black, American author, and professor at Atlanta Clark University.

00:00:43 Tim

“Sometimes you have to grow up before you appreciate how you grew up.”

00:00:50 Tim

Today we talked to another CODA from the country of India. He is a sign language interpreter, but he wasn't always. We learn his journey from a naughty kid to a professional sign language interpreter. We learn the ins and outs, and the accomplishments of my guest and his family.

00:01:11 Tim

We'll see how he took his talents to become the professional interpreter that he is today.

00:01:17 Tim

Let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:01:23 Tim

Our guest today is Amaresh Gopalakrishnan. He is an experienced sign language interpreter from India.

00:01:31 Tim

Yes, that's right. We're moving from Europe today all the way to the other side of the world. Amaresh is a CODA who has a master’s degree in linguistics and two bachelor's degrees, one in special education and one in business administration. He also has a diploma in sign language interpreting from India.

00:01:51 Tim

And he also runs two different businesses, one called Let's Sign and something like a travel agency. But we'll learn more about those as we have our conversation today. So please welcome Amaresh.

00:02:05 Amaresh

Hello everyone. Hi Tim, how are you doing?

00:02:08 Tim

I'm doing pretty good. Very cold here.

00:02:11 Tim

I imagine the weather is different there.

00:02:14 Amaresh

Well, here, yeah.

00:02:15 Amaresh

It's nice. How can I say let me see the temperature is a nice 30°C warm and sunny afternoon over here.

00:02:24 Tim

It's only 0°C here, so a little different. [Amaresh chuckles]

00:02:29 Tim

Let's warm things up with a wonderful conversation. So first, you grew up as a CODA.

00:02:35 Amaresh

That's right, I am still a CODA. [both laughing]

00:02:39 Tim

Well, that's good. It's, it's nice to continue being who you are, yes. [both laughing]

00:02:46 Tim

So, what was it like in India growing up as a CODA? Did you encounter interpreters when you were young? Do you have lots of deaf clubs? What's it look like?

00:02:56 Amaresh

You know, I've been asked this question many times from many people and, uh…

00:03:02 Amaresh

I've thought about it a lot.

00:03:04 Amaresh

Well, what I felt was it's always been, uh, like natural for me in the early years.

00:03:10 Amaresh

Like, you know, like, since birth your first language sign language. So initially you're exposed to sign language, and you know it's more visual and once you get out of the home you start getting out of home, like, you know like getting used to speech and sounds and stuff like that so.

00:03:30 Amaresh

Initial, initial years as a baby or you know, like when growing up, you don't feel that there is much of a difference. It feels so natural, you know? And I remember an incident my parents used to tell me.

00:03:46 Amaresh

In fact, my father and my mother, they got married to each other very late, you know, in, in their life. And so, my father hails from the South of India and my mother is kind of the central northern part of India. [Tim: mhmm] So different cultures…

00:04:06 Amaresh

…and things like that. So, the families weren't really “OK” with the marriage.

00:04:15 Amaresh

Yeah. So, it so happened that they had to live separately from the family in India. You know, like there's always been a joint family kind of thing where the family, the whole family, next to their family, they all live together. [Tim: mhmm]

00:04:30 Amaresh

So, it was pretty hard for them because they had to live separately in another city. So, I grew up in what was known as Madras and I was called Chennai [Tim: mhmm] in India.

00:04:43 Amaresh

Initially for the first 2-3 years, the parents weren't very, they weren't accepting, you know, they didn't accept the marriage, so they did not…uh…

00:04:53 Amaresh

…had any contact with my parents for the first few years after their marriage. [Tim: mhmm]

00:04:59 Amaresh

But after, I was born and I was like… my grandparents, ya know, they started feeling “OK, OK, babies there”. [Tim chuckles] So, they wanted to see the baby, they wanted to see their grandson. So, you know, the whole situation is sussed out and, and they want to come and see. [Tim: Yeah] My grandparents visited us in Chennai for the first time and I was around two years old. [Tim: mhmm]

00:05:23 Amaresh

The first thing when my grandma, my grandma, when she saw me and she tried to speak to me, I immediately turned to my parents and I started signing, right? [Tim chuckles]

00:05:37 Amaresh

And she was aghast! She was like, “Oh my God, what is happening? You people, you don’t spoil the child. He's not speaking. He's a normal hearing child. He's, he's hearing. He’s normal. Speech is normal, but he's not speaking, he's just signing and signing and signing you just spoiled the child!”

00:05:56 Amaresh

They were kind of chiding my parents. [Tim: mmm]

00:05:59 Amaresh

And but, at that time, a neighborhood, you know, like a child came and he wanted to play with me. And I started talking to the, the another kid, and they were kind of surprised, “Ah, he was able to speak too. And he's able to sign too.” [Tim laughing]

00:06:16 Amaresh

And you know…

00:06:18 Amaresh

They were pretty surprised. And you know when my parents told me this incident, it, it made me realize how like… that was the time I was living in two worlds you know. [Tim: mhmm]

00:06:28 Amaresh

From the hearing perspective, they have absolutely no idea how the deaf world operates and all that. So, for my grandparents, my father was the first child or the only deaf child in the family. So, they have absolutely no idea they sent my father off to a boarding school and stuff like that.

00:06:45 Amaresh

So, they had absolutely no idea how to deal with deaf people or deaf community and had had no experience at all. [Tim: mhmm]

00:06:52 Amaresh

So, when my parents were telling me the story that was the time when I realized, “OK, there are two different worlds. [Tim: mhmm] And you know people don't understand this world and that world.

00:07:01 Tim

How old were you when this realization came about?

00:07:04 Amaresh

That was much later, you know, like probably when I was in much later in school. I think so. I'm not really sure…

00:07:12 Amaresh

…when I started realizing, but much later in life, you know when they told me the story, when I realized, “OK”. [Tim: yeah] But when I started going to school, even then, you know, it was quite natural for me. I go to school, I speak to my friends, played with my friends. And when I come home…

00:07:29 Amaresh

…you know like, I converse with my parents in sign language. So, it was pretty normal for me. [Tim: mhmm] But, you know, during school I did take a lot of advantages, since my parents were Deaf. You know?  [Tim: mhmm] The school administration and the whole school setting, they were very lenient, you could say, [Tim chuckles] towards me…

00:07:55 Amaresh

…you know, than other kids. [Tim: mhmm] So, I was quite very naughty kid at school, so I did a lot of naughty things and I was always excused, saying, “OK, parents’ are Deaf. It's OK and…” You know, they give you a lot of advice.

00:08:09 Amaresh

So, I started taking advantage of that in school. [both laughing]

00:08:13 Amaresh

I learned, “OK, so, since my parents are like that these people are kind of, you know, being very lenient on them or on me” so…

00:08:23 Amaresh

I just started taking advantage of that, and I remember I never used to be at home. I was... I always wanted to go out, be with friends, roam around. [Tim: mhmm] Because when I come back at home, it's like very quiet. I don't get information, you know. [Tim: mhmm]

00:08:41 Amaresh

So, when I go out to my friends, they tell me a lot of things.

00:08:44 Amaresh

Which I miss because nothing much is happening at home. So, so, I always felt like in the back, you know, because I was always lagging behind in certain areas. So, you know, like I didn't, I didn't have the kind of information [Tim: mhmm] that the kids already had because they already they had this, uh,… 

00:09:07 Amaresh

They have this term called “incidental learning” [Tim: yes] in the sense that when the kids go back home, they listen to their parents, they listen to TV and stuff like that.

00:09:13 Amaresh

So, they learn about things back at home too. So, that I was missing. So, when I used to go back to school, there are a lot of things that my friends say, and they did this, and they did that. I remember one incident they were saying they were discussing about some news, and they asked me if I knew, and I said I knew about it.

00:09:35 Amaresh

And they said, “It's not possible for you to know. How is it possible for you to know?” And I said, “Yeah, of course I know that I saw it on MTV.” [Tim laughing] But back then I didn't know MTV is only for music, [both laughing] you know, I just knew the channel. So, I did brag that I knew about this and that I didn't know about it. And they laughed loud and, “You know, MTV is just music and the news doesn't come on.” It's those kind of things. [Tim: yeah]

00:09:59 Amaresh

Those were some incidents, like which made me kinda feel, “OK. I'm a bit different”, you know, I was lagging behind. [Tim: Yeah] So, every time I, you know, I learned something new. It's always after everybody learns. Then I learn, you know, I get to know certain things. [Tim: yeah] So, I felt that, uh, when growing up in school.

00:10:23 Amaresh

And even some of my friends, they used to be very lenient and very nice to me because my parents were like that and, umm…

00:10:30 Amaresh

Yeah, I never got bullied or anything like that. Everybody were very, very nice. [Tim: mhmm] Well, I've got into very bad company and stuff like that, so.

00:10:39 Amaresh

Very, very difficult time for my parents to manage all that. [Tim: mhmm]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:10:48 Amaresh

You know, as a CODA, I'm not sure if other CODAs face it or, you know, have this, uh…

00:10:54 Amaresh

Usually what happens is growing up or you know, you try to interpret, you know, when you go outside with your parents, [Tim: mhmm] any kind of social events or any, any meeting or just shopping or anything like that.

00:11:11 Amaresh

So, you're always interpreting, [Tim: mhmm] always interpreting right from a very early age, parents ask what is he saying? And you try and explain it to them. [Tim: mhmm]

00:11:22 Amaresh

And from a very early age, you kind of, you know, you start deciding for your parents. [Tim: mhmm]

00:11:29 Amaresh

No, I wouldn't say decide. But you know like it so happens that you start, you start taking decisions and stuff like that because you know the parents are not, you know, familiar with that stuff. You know about this stuff, and you advise your parents, “OK? You do this and this and this” and stuff like that. [Tim: hmm]

00:11:45 Amaresh

So, instead of the parents telling us what is right and what is wrong, it so happens that we tell them, “OK, no, no, no, this is right, this is wrong. And we can do this. We cannot do that stuff like that.” [Tim: yeah]

00:11:58 Amaresh

So that's how it started, uh, for me as a CODA. [Tim: mhmm]

00:12:02 Amaresh

I took a lot of advantage since my parents were deaf from a very early age.

00:12:08 Amaresh

But later on, when I grew up, then I realized the differences between the two worlds and what you know how important it is my role in the family as such. [Tim: mhmm]

00:12:21 Amaresh

Yeah. So, at certain points it is emotional because uh, you try and juggle the two worlds. [Tim: mhmm] Sometimes you feel that you don't fit into the hearing world. Sometimes you feel you don't fit into the deaf community. So, you are kind of stuck in between. So, you don't know which identity to take because, uh,…

00:12:42 Amaresh

For me, I've been working in this field for a very long time, so I work mainly with the deaf people. [Tim: mhmm] 

00:12:51 Amaresh

And I identify, even though I'm hearing, you know, but in my mind, I think more like a deaf person, how they think and what is their perspective. So, it's always from that perspective. So, I keep thinking. So, I feel like I do belong to that community also.

00:13:10 Amaresh

But sometimes the deaf community does not accept it. [Tim: mhmm] They try and push you out and then when they push you out, then you're left, you're stranded, you're stuck.

00:13:21 Amaresh

You don't… You don't fit into the hearing community because yes, in all your life, you've been working in this field. So,im: mhmm] So it's very difficult to... [Tim: yeah] So, you were left standing stuck in between. So, you don't know which community you belong to. [Tim: Yeah]

00:13:40 Tim

Have you discussed this at all with your parents? This feeling, and do they understand how you are?

00:13:46 Amaresh

Yeah. Sometimes when we have an argument, then all these things come up, you know so… [Tim: mhmm] Well, you can't do anything about it. And they can just understand it. Empathize. But you know, you can't do anything about it.

00:13:59 Tim

Yeah. Yeah. So, you were lagging behind in information. Did you have a TV or radio at all at home?

00:14:06 Amaresh

We did, but I'm like, I love music so. [Tim: mhmm]

00:14:12 Amaresh

When we had the TV, when I watched TV, it was always, you know, like watching songs and stuff like that. So, I, I know I like to watch the news and stuff like that. [Tim: Yeah] Well my dad watches the news, or my mom watches the soap operas and the dramas on the TV. When they do that, it's usually put the volume down so. [Tim: yeah]

00:14:36 Amaresh

You don't get that information.

00:14:38 Amaresh

Well, when I put the volume up, it's usually only for music and other entertainment stuff, and movies, and stuff like that, yeah.

00:14:47 Tim

Did you have subtitles or interpreters on the TV at all?

00:14:50 Amaresh

Not at all. At that time, you didn't have all those kind of things. I do remember there was one news for the hearing impairment, which was aired every Sunday.

00:15:02 Amaresh

Early in the morning at 7:00, I think. Yeah, if I remember correct. So that, that started very later, so much later. [Tim: yeah]

00:15:11 Amaresh

But during the early years, I don't remember having seen any subtitles or something like that, yeah.

00:15:19 Amaresh

So, my dad…uh,

00:15:21 Amaresh

…my parents, they traveled to America in the 1980s, so. So, when they came back… They came back a lot of information.

00:15:30 Amaresh

They brought back that TTY that I think it is called.

00:15:33 Tim

Yeah, yeah.

00:15:34 Amaresh

So, they brought all that devices back to India to show the deaf community and you know, try it. [Tim: wow] Because my father, like he was very social person. So, he's involved with the deaf associations and social work and trying to…

00:15:52 Amaresh

You know, he’s always within the deaf community. He like, he was the one who, you know, like he was the founder of the Association for the Deaf in Chennai. So, they set up the association. And so he was always with the community, trying to, you know, uplift them and do a lot of work for them so. [Tim: mhmm]

00:16:12 Amaresh

So probably that's rub down to me and that's how I'm still now within this deaf community and the whole team is you know, deaf people. [Tim: Yeah] Yeah, the passion is still in me.

00:16:24 Tim

Yeah. Yeah.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:16:25 Tim

Thank you to all the hundreds of people following this podcast. If you want to hear from interpreters around the world and get the latest episodes, follow the podcast in your app.

00:16:36 Tim

Just check out some of the links in the show notes to help you with that. Thank you. Now let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:16:43 Tim

You went through several degrees, and you've been interpreting well your whole life. But when did you start interpreting professionally? Was there a turning point in the community or the society where it was viable to be an interpreter, or how did you become a professional interpreter?

00:17:03 Amaresh

Well, it started off like this usually in those days when I was very young…

00:17:10 Amaresh

You know, like interpreting or within the family setting and for friends. And so, we used to do that. [Tim: mhmm]

00:17:17 Amaresh

In those days interpreters, if you say, it was usually done by teachers of the Deaf. [Tim: mhmm] You know, who are working in the schools, those teachers, they, they're usually called to interpret in certain settings or programs whenever they're needed. So, that was the case.

00:17:34 Amaresh

So, we didn't have any professional interpreter, per se, in those days.

00:17:39 Tim

And we're talking about the 1980s or?

00:17:42 Amaresh

Yeah, the 1980s, the 1990s, you know. [Tim: mhmm]

00:17:45 Amaresh

So, [Tim: OK] those times it was usually the teachers or... So, you know sometimes CODAs, they were invited too. [Tim: mhmm]

00:17:54 Amaresh

So sometimes they get paid, sometimes they do it on a pro bono basis. So, they're always like that. So, it wasn't really wasn't a profession as such those days. [Tim: Yeah] But when I started getting into the field, it was catching.

00:18:08 Amaresh

I remember I started interpreting professionally like this.

00:18:12 Amaresh

So, I remembered this incident very clearly.

00:18:15 Amaresh

So, I will. I'm basically… I used to be a software professional or software programmer. [Tim: mhmm]

00:18:22 Amaresh

I did my course, a three-year course at a National Institute over here on computer course, while I was doing my college. So, I was doing that simultaneously and after that I got a job in a company on dealing with the computers and stuff like that software. So, it so happened that during, uh, I was working in a different city from where I actually studied so.

00:18:49 Amaresh

But there is a huge institute now. It's called the Three Ramakrishna Mission.

00:18:57 Amaresh

So, it's a, it's a huge organization, the worldwide organization. So, in that city where I was working…

00:19:04 Amaresh

They had a huge campus. So, it's a kind of educational campus over there. So, one, could you know, start of the education from the kindergarten.

00:19:15 Amaresh

So, it's all very huge actually.

00:19:18 Amaresh

So, they had a, they organized a conference, all of that for the deaf people. And it was a three-day conference where around 2000 deaf people attended up from all over India.

00:19:30 Amaresh

So, my father was kind of, you know, organizing the whole thing with the Institute, so. [Tim: mhmm]

00:19:38 Amaresh

He had to come to that city, so he invited me to attend the conference.

00:19:43 Amaresh

I was not interested. I was not interested in interpreting at all.

00:19:46 Amaresh

I didn't like it.

00:19:47 Amaresh

So, you know, I had a sister, a younger sister. So, whenever they ask this to interpret, I usually ask my sister to do that. [Tim laughing] I don't do it. I, I was never interested.

00:19:58 Amaresh

So, it so happened that he invited me for the conference and it was a national conference.

00:20:04 Amaresh

I didn't want to go, so he forced me to go there on the last day. On the third day of the conference, I said, “OK, I’ll go. So, I went to the conference. I was there for the whole day. I was there, you know, chatting with all these deaf people and everybody knew my father because you know, he did a lot of work all throughout India, so he’s well known all throughout India. [Tim: mhmm]

00:20:26 Amaresh

Everybody came to me, “Oh, you're Gopalakrishnan son”. Oh my father's, you know, like his nickname is Gopu. “So, you're Gopu's son, Gopu's son.” [Tim chuckles] You know, like they all came to me. And they gave me so much of love. I got so much love that day. And then post lunch, there was this closing ceremony and we had a lot of speakers on the stage and they were speaking.

00:20:49 Amaresh

But they had a few interpreters, uh teachers. [Tim: mhmm] So, the principle of the institution who was hosting this whole conference, he met me.

00:21:01 Amaresh

And we were talking, and he said friendly, “You know how to sign.” I said yes and stuff like that. And then my father told me he wanted me to go on stage and, you know, interpret for them. Because at that point of time, the interpreters, we didn't have any interpreters at that time. So, there was a speech going on. My father said, “Just go, you know.” [Tim chuckles]

00:21:19 Amaresh

I said OK because there were no interpreters. I said OK. I went on stage, and I signed, interpreted ‘til 30, 30, 40 minutes or something and it came down, sat down. Everybody, when I was climbing down the stage, everybody like clapping their hands and waving and saying, “Ohh you're signing so good” [Tim chuckles] and things like that. “We were able understand everything”.

00:21:43 Amaresh

So, when I sat down people from, you know like, sitting next to me they were like you know, “Ohh. You're doing very good. Excellent sign. Excellent sign.”

00:21:50 Amaresh

I was getting a lot of love and a lot of lot of positive feedback. [Tim: mhmm]

00:21:54 Amaresh

And then at the end of that program, the principle of that institution was hosting the whole thing. He came on to the mic and he said, he announced that we actually were testing all the interpreters today with the, the Deaf people.

00:22:11 Amaresh

Seeing which interpreter’s doing good. [Tim: uh huh] And all of them, my name was the top. [Tim: wow]

00:22:18 Amaresh

He said that Amaresh was, uh, you know, everybody liked him and he's the best, and stuff like that. And I was quite surprised. [Tim: mhmm]

00:22:27 Amaresh

But I don't think that I did a very good job because I'm not used to, you know, like going on stage and stuff like that so. [Tim: mhmm]

00:22:35 Amaresh

They said, “Yeah, Amaresh is the top interpreter for the day.”

00:22:40 Amaresh

But after the conference was over, the principal came up to me and said, “OK, I have a proposal for you. So, we'll be going to start off this project to publish an Indian Sign Language dictionary.” [Tim: mmm] So, prior to that, we didn’t have a dictionary. We had a dictionary, but it was kind of a research document, but it wasn't enough. [Tim: mhmm]

00:23:01 Amaresh

So what they wanted to publish a comprehensive dictionary, Indian Sign Language dictionary, and he offered me the job, you know, to work on that team.

00:23:10 Amaresh

And he said that, “I offered your father also your father’s agreed. So, if you want, you can work with your dad.” [Tim laughs]

00:23:18 Amaresh

And I was like, “OK, that's a nice offer, but how much you going to pay?”

00:23:21 Amaresh

And it wasn't much, much lesser than what I was getting at my company. So, I said, “I'll think about it and let you know”.

00:23:30 Amaresh

So, I went back. Had a discussion with my family and for two or three months I had a think over it.

00:23:37 Amaresh

My dad just said one thing, you know, like, “OK, you decide. You know, right now the software industry. OK, you definitely you know like if you do well, you definitely earn lots. [Tim: mhmm] That's all there. So, that's been your wish and all that. That's fine. But you can also think about this. There are a lot of people doing software. We don't have anyone in this field to do a dictionary to do stuff like that, to do work on this.”

00:24:08 Amaresh

“We don't have anyone. So why don't you try it out? Finish out this project if you still like it, you can be there. Otherwise, you can just create it and go get back to your software.” [Tim: mhmm]

00:24:18 Amaresh

OK. And thought about it, it was a two-year project. I thought, OK, two years, not a long, long time. So, I could still get back and I could I still have my “mojo” [Tim chuckles] in software here, but I can still get back.” [Tim: yeah, yeah]

00:24:30 Amaresh

So, I decided, OK, give it a try. So, we got, I worked with my dad. We traveled all over India, we collected, we documented the signs. We did a lot of research. And finally, after 2-3 years. So, we published uh, a dictionary.

00:24:45 Amaresh

And after we published the dictionary, the next step was to formulate the design of an interpreter’s course. So, for the first time in India, so we drafted the interpreter’s course and then we submitted that to the government for the approval and stuff like that. [Tim: mhmm]

00:25:02 Amaresh

So, we worked with another National Institute over here and we set up this course. We finalized the curriculum and then we set it up. So that was the first time we had a proper a diploma in Indian Sign Language Interpreting Course. [Tim: mhmm]

00:25:16 Amaresh

And our first batch started off in the year 2001.

00:25:21 Amaresh

Uh, 2001, 2002 it was then we… I actually started interpreting professionally. So, after that I never looked back, so it was, uh, never got back into software at all. So, and then it was like in this field. So that's how I started, uh, [Tim: mhmm] interpreting professionally.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:25:43 Tim

This project was it the whole nation of India or was it more of one of the regions? Did you have a local government supporting this or was it a national government supporting it? And did you find that Indian Sign Language varied immensely between regions? Lot of questions there.

00:26:02 Amaresh

Yeah. So, this project they did sound like the dictionary project. It was… It's a nationwide project, actually. It was funded by CBM International.

00:26:12 Tim

C-B-N?

00:26:13 Amaresh

Yeah, CBM, M for Mumbai, CBM international. It's actually a German-based international NGO, they mainly deal with Vision, Vision and Visual impairment, so they mainly deal with that. But it so, happened that prior to the conference that I was talking to you about earlier, so prior to that they had a, a meeting and which was, you know, funded by CBM International and they got all these people together. My father was also part of the meeting.

00:26:44 Amaresh

So, it was there. My father suggested that we should have a sign language dictionary. [Tim: mhmm]

00:26:49 Amaresh

The main purpose of the meeting is to, you know, like analyze the education, the kind of education of the deaf children in India. Why it isn't, you know, like still very backward and why is it, isn't like improving [Tim: mhmm] or progressing. So, they were having a lot of discussion.

00:27:05 Amaresh

My father said, “The main reason was the language. You know, if you do not use sign language in schools and how do you expect children to, you know, learn. If you just focus on speech, they're just going to learn how to speak better. They ought to learn how to do other things.” [Tim: yeah]

00:27:20 Amaresh

So, that was the main point he put forth and they asked him, “How do you solve this? You know what? How do you go forward and how do you try to resolve this issue?”

00:27:31 Amaresh

And dad suggested initially the first thing to do is to have a dictionary, you know, so people can learn sign language from. Have a dictionary which will be a basis for you to teach sign language. Then you can have very good learning and stuff like that later on. So initially you should have some document, to document all the signs. [Tim: mhmm]

00:27:49 Amaresh

So that is why they initiated this project. So, when they initiated this project, they wanted to have Indian Sign Language dictionary.

00:27:55 Amaresh

That meant that it is span India [Tim: mhmm] all throughout India. We wanted to document the signs from all throughout India, documented the signs, document the variations also. [Tim: mhmm] So, you have a lot of variations within India in Indian Sign Language itself within the regions. [Tim: mhmm] So, we had to document that. there are times where.

00:28:17 Amaresh

There are times where for us in a word, you would have different variation, 10 different variations.

00:28:22 Amaresh

For example, uh, the days of the week Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. So even in a small region you have a lot of variations in India. [Tim: mmm] Yeah, basically because, you know, like these signs were, you know, involved in those particular schools for the Deaf. [Tim: Yeah]

00:28:40 Amaresh

They had their own way of signing the days of the week. [Tim: Yeah]

00:28:45 Amaresh

In that kind of scenario, what you do is like, you just have to select the ones which are used widely throughout India where you have to see demographically if it's used widely and if it's just used in a very small pocket or something like so we have to do all the kind of research and publish that dictionary. [Tim: mhmm]

00:29:04 Amaresh

To do the proper research work, and we did, uh, you know, we collected signs of from each state in India. [Tim: mhmm] We selected five cities where we consider the Deaf population of the community to be little big or strong. So, we selected cities. [Tim: mhmm]

00:29:23 Amaresh

Went to them with a list of words and collected sign for each and every word. So, we had to really go out and film it and then come back, and analyze the videos, and stuff like that. So, those are very tedious and heavy work. [Tim chuckles] And then we had to publish in a you know, hard copy format. The visual signs into, you know, line drawings and we have to do all that. My dad is an artist, so…

00:29:50 Amaresh

So, so, that he could do all the, the line drawings and stuff like that. So, we used a little bit of software in it because I added my software skills, my dad added his artistic skills. So, [Tim: mhmm] we were able to publish the dictionary, came out to a very, very beautiful dictionary, but it was very bulky, it contained around 1800 words.

00:30:10 Amaresh

I think, yeah [Tim: yeah]. 1800 words if I remember correctly. So, that was the first attempt. [Tim: mhmm]

00:30:16 Amaresh

So, to make the dictionary in India, so it was a comprehensive work, but yeah.

00:30:20 Tim

Yeah. Have you put that digitally online now or is that one of the next steps?

00:30:25 Amaresh

Later. Oh, we had somebody who came and, you know, like translated all that into video. [Tim: aha]. So, we do have a video format of the dictionary. I think it is online, if you look at the Ramakrishna Mission website, probably you might find it. So yeah, I think it is online too.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:30:52 Tim

We have heard from many CODAs who are sign language interpreters around the world. We all know the story of not having enough interpreters, and those interpreters who are at the beginning of the profession were CODAs or teachers of the deaf or friends of the family. Here we heard in his own words how India has gone through this development.

00:31:13 Tim

How he's seen it with his own eyes.

00:31:15 Tim

Just like many other CODAs, his story about how the lack of incidental learning at home influenced his relationships with his friends and shaped his childhood. All of this has obviously influenced and created his own identity, his feeling of belonging.

00:31:35 Tim

Even though he still juggles between the two worlds, the two cultures of his parents and the rest of the world. But why is this history lesson important for us? Because it tells us one way that things can be improved and what paths we can take.

00:31:56 Tim

And just like Amaresh, we can go from frustration to realizing what it all means. Knowing where we came from helps us know who we are and what we can do.

00:32:09 Tim

I can't wait to share with you the next parts of this interview until then.

00:32:15 Tim

Keep calm. Keep incidentally, interpreting.

00:32:20 Tim

I'll see you next week.

Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:32:59]