IW 89: Interview Nives Gotovac Part 3: Obvious and Not Obvious Influences on Sign Language Interpreters

STOP Pretending. Be what you pretend to be, be better.

Sign language interpreters have many influences that affect our work. In part three of our conversation with Croatian Sign Language interpreter, Nives Gotovac, we learn more of those obvious and not so obvious influences on our work and lives. We learn from this CODA (child of Deaf adults), about ethics, language, and community as we discuss the interpreting profession in Croatia.

And for some fun... Ever wonder why someone would not like coffee?? Nives tells us her reason.

Enjoy.

Transcript

IW 89: Interview Nives Gotovac Part 3: Obvious and Not Obvious Influences on Sign Language Interpreters

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS] 

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go tointerpretersworkshop.com

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:34 Tim

And now the quote of the day by the Greek philosopher Socrates.

00:00:40 Tim

“The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be.”

00:00:48 Tim

Today, in part three of our conversation with Nives Gotovac from Croatia, she reminds us of all the things that influence us, whether it be from the dilemmas, the ethical decisions of interpreting or the influences we have on ourselves, whether it be the communities we serve or the communities in which we belong.

00:01:09 Tim

So, if we're pretending to be interpreters, let’s start being the interpreter we wish to be.

00:01:17 Tim

Let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:01:23 Tim

Earlier you discussed how you made decisions when there were dilemmas on top of dilemmas, on top of dilemmas and you told us kind of a generality of it. However, as you were saying all of that, little situations were popping up in my mind where I had experienced moments where I had to make decisions in a split second, and sometimes I, I can laugh at those things now at what I did, or I can say I'm proud of those moments. What have you? What images were popping in your head when you were saying all of this? Were there some?

00:01:55 Nives

Yeah, I have like a bunch of situations, but still when we discuss ethics, the first thing that comes to my mind are the lectures by Robyn Dean at EUMASLI. [Tim: mhmm] And she developed, and I think that you're familiar with [Tim: mhmm] maybe the listeners aren't or are…

00:02:12 Tim

I hope so, since I interviewed her. Yeah. [Nives chuckling]

00:02:15 Nives

Yeah, Demand Control scheme [Tim: mhmm] and I think that's a good thing to...

00:02:21 Nives

…just to acknowledge that there are so many things that influence our work, [Tim: mhmm] us as a person, part of the day that we are interpreting, setting that we are interpreting in, and people that we are interpreting for, I mean so, so many things and I think that that's actually the thing that, that was in my mind that, when, when you asked about ethics.

00:02:44 Nives

And I think that we should be aware of all those things that influence us and actually in, in the end, they do make us develop some strategies how to cope with certain situations and previous experiences also add to, to our understanding of what ethics is or what, what should we, what should we conclude and do in the end. [Tim: mhmm]

00:03:10 Nives

So yeah, Robyn Dean, definitely. Bye, uh, Hello, [both chuckling] Robyn, if you're listening. 

00:03:17 Tim

I'm sure she is.

00:03:19 Tim

I know I've had the experience of discussing dilemmas or decision making with many interpreters from different countries.

00:03:28 Tim

And from that, I've learned many things, how my cultural differences and their cultural differences affect the way we would make our decisions. Have you seen that as well?

00:03:39 Nives

Yeah, I would say it. It's actually now I have like really a situation when I was at efsli School in Belgrade. [Tim: mhmm]

00:03:48 Nives

It was hosted by Serbian Association... Oh, sorry, Belgrade Deaf Association. [Tim: mhmm]

00:03:55 Nives

And it was actually…

00:03:56 Nives

…a good, good thing that made me aware of those cultural differences because there was an exercise and we were practicing a job interview.

00:04:06 Nives

Topic was…work related meeting settings. [Tim: mhmm]

00:04:12 Nives

And I thought that I did quite a good job interpreting that staff client to his boss.

00:04:20 Nives

And when, when we were on the break, a colleague came to me and he said, “Well, you know that you actually missed the whole point.”

00:04:28 Nives

And I was like, “” Why would you say that?” [Tim chuckles] “Because I thought everything was, you know, running smoothly.”

00:04:35 Nives

And he said, “Well, uh, that boss told his deaf employee that if he would be late again, that the next thing is firing him.”

00:04:47 Nives

“He did say it in a really nice and really polite way, [Tim: mhmm] but that's the way people from England or France or whatever [Tim: mhmm] would definitely start a conversation with an employee. [Tim: Yeah] And that deaf person didn't get the full understanding of the situation because as you interpret it, it seemed. ‘Well, you know. It's some minor thing that you should correct and please come to your work at on time.’

00:05:17 Nives

And I was like, “Wow” because in Croatia I would maybe interpret that to myself differently. [Tim: mhmm]

00:05:26 Nives

Because maybe people from Balkans are more direct and more in line with deaf culture. So… [Tim: yeah]

00:05:34 Nives

And that's the thing, actually. Well, maybe, maybe that that was the point when I started thinking about other cultures that are not the same [Tim: mmm] as my culture, Croatian culture, Balkan culture, name it, however. [Tim: yeah]

00:05:48 Nives

And I, I would say those cultural differences are really huge sometimes.

00:05:54 Tim

Yeah, especially if your work has to do with how we are direct or indirect.

00:05:59 Nives

Yeah, I, I remember also interpreting on TV, it was actually an interpretation of a French speaker. [Tim: mhmm] And I remember that I was sitting and reading the sentence that was interpreted and like…

00:06:16 Nives

“I really don't understand the meaning of the sentence” because you know that's the way how French people communicate. That's I mean that's their culture. That's the way they behave. [Tim: mhmm]

00:06:28 Nives

And for me, it was like and then I called my colleague [both chuckle slightly] and friend and she's interpreter in the European institutions and it's really familiar with that French…

00:06:41 Nives

…speakers. And she was like, “Oh, well, he was actually trying to say this and that.” And I was like, “Oh, really? I didn't see that coming. [Tim laughs] You know, that's, that's not everyday thing for me.” [Tim: mhmm] But yeah, we, we should be I… And I think that even EUMASLI program gives you….uh…

00:07:00 Nives

First semester you'll learn about similarities and differences in European sign languages.

00:07:04 Nives

So, because it's a program that that connects actually three universities in… Heriot Watt in Scotland, Magdeburg-Stendal in Magdeburg in Germany, and HUMAK in Finland. Magdeburg

00:07:17 Nives

And it gives you a glimpse of their culture and their sign languages. So, it's a good thing to have to know different cultures to be more aware of your culture [Tim: mhmm] and even more differences between hearing culture and deaf culture. [Tim: exactly]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:07:37 Tim

What would a typical work week for a sign language interpreter look like? My guess let's talk about your typical work week, [Nives: mhmm] because I'm not sure you can speak for all of those organizations.

00:07:50 Nives

Well, I might, because my master’s research involved asking interpreters [Tim: aahh] about the settings that, that they work the most.

00:07:58 Nives

And I think it aligns with what I do the most. [Tim: mhmm] So, basically social welfare centers are in the top two, I would say. [Tim: mhmm] So, the first, first thing where interpreters are mostly needed is social welfare centers, medical settings definitely, then meetings, education. As I said, we interpret from kindergarten to university to lifelong learning programs, projects, workshops. Also, there are job interviews.

00:08:34 Nives

There are meetings at work.

00:08:38 Nives

But I would say that it's not that different from any interpreter working, eh, in any country. I think the, the most, most of the thing is in this medical setting or let's say maybe in Croatia more in this social welfare centers because to get some rights deaf people need to, to go to their social worker to ask the questions, get all the papers [Tim: mhmm] they should fill in and you know, bureaucracy is a big thing in Croatia, so yeah. [Tim laughing]

00:09:13 Nives

Social welfare centers are #1 and then medical, medical settings.

00:09:18 Tim

Yeah. Are they paid by the interpreting job or just a monthly salary from that organization?

00:09:23 Nives

Just monthly salary. [Tim: OK] And it's a little bit different if you're working as an interpreter in school, like any level, actually, sorry, kindergarten, elementary or high school.

00:09:35 Nives

Uh, you can get like a four-hour salary there, like a part time salary [Tim: mhmm] from the school. Or sometimes it's paid by cities or municipalities and you get the part time salary from deaf association or whatever association you're working for.

00:09:55 Tim

Yeah. So those who want to have a variety in their jobs, they can do that.

00:10:00 Nives

Well, I'm not sure it's about variety. It's more about the needs or the demand [Tim: ah, OK] of the Deaf. Because in Croatia, as I said, so only one deaf school that doesn't have that many deaf children [Tim: mhmm] is in Zagreb. And the, I mean, even in Zagreb, it's quite difficult for parents and or maybe people are not that used to taking their kids all over town for school nowadays. [Tim: mhmm] Uh and also different grade different classes. So yes, many deaf most deaf children are, are mainstreamed.

00:10:36 Nives

And they have their own interpreters, and because of that huge demand, interpreters in a way cannot pick if they want to work in schools. But if there is a demand, I mean we should meet it. [Tim: yeah] We should have the deaf child having an interpreter in school and in associations it's, I mean, it's…

00:10:56 Nives

Demand is still high, but I think it's, well, we all can like switch our schedules more easily. When you're working in Deaf association when whereas when you're working in school it's a little bit more, uh, fixed [Tim: yeah] in a way.

00:11:11 Nives

Because you know the, the schedule in school, it's one week you're in the morning, next week you're in the afternoon and that's predictable, you know, that will be from September to till June. And besides holidays, of course. [Tim: yeah]

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:11:26 Tim

Thank you for your support. When you click on the links in the show notes to Buy Me A Coffee, you're donating to a good cause, right? Aren't you? It's, it's, it's for the free information here. [coughs] And don't forget to share with the colleague, or two, or three. Let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:11:43 Tim

How has the relationship between the interpreting community and the deaf community been over the years? Are they working well as the deaf community, like the associations teaching, helping improve the interpreting situation and vice versa. [Nives: mhmm]

00:12:02 Tim

Or is that a topic we don't need to talk about?

00:12:04 Nives

No, no, we, we can discuss of course, but I, I don't… maybe, now things are getting or becoming a bit better because deaf associations and us in interpreting associations are more aware that we have to work together.

00:12:21 Nives

Until now, I would say some associations did work with interpreters. Some didn't. In some associations, interpreters were kind of on a pedestal [Tim: mhmm] like, because they are the only hearing person in the room and they have all the skills, and knowledge, and languages.

00:12:44 Nives

So it was kind of…

00:12:46 Nives

I would say audistic, but still I'm not sure that it's fully intentional. It's just because the situation was like that. [Tim: mhmm] I mean, you were in, uh, some smaller city, you were the only CODA or the only person who knew sign language and could communicate over the phone or with hearing people and you were stuck in there.

00:13:07 Nives

And you were expected to, to do the job, but I think that nowadays people are being more aware that…

00:13:15 Nives

We need to have education in us interpreters, but also Deaf. Deaf community needs to have the education, education, it's not education, it's awareness. “What is interpreter’s job?” [Tim: mhmm]

00:13:26 Nives

And I think that we're starting building, building out, out that.

00:13:31 Tim

Yeah. Yeah, that connects to everything else you talked about how it takes time to change for education, for interpreters, employment.

00:13:39 Nives

Yeah, of course.

00:13:41 Nives

Even I want to speed things up, [both lightly chuckle] but over the past 20 years, I understood that it's… some things really, they, they are just a process. And process needs time. [Tim: mhmm] And even just a few weeks or a month before a month ago, me and my colleague went to, to the Ministry of Education.

00:14:01 Nives

We wanted to discuss about this national qualification system that we want to put sign language interpreter as an occupation. [Tim: mhmm]

00:14:10 Nives

And actually, the lady from the ministry, she said.

00:14:14 Nives

“Well”, because we, we discussed why we didn't do it before and all about our, our job and our work. [Tim chuckles] And she was like, “Yeah, for some things it just takes time and certain things just need to happen at that certain moment, not a second before, not a second after.” And we were like, “Yes, [Tim: mmm] it's true because there were some people that needed to be aware or some people needed to be changed to another position [Tim: mhmm] to understand that well, the time is now that we should be doing this and that.” So yes, [Tim: yeah] it's a process. We just come back [both chuckle] to them over and over again.

00:14:52 Tim

Ah, Wow.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:14:57 Tim

OK, let's do some word association. As most of my listeners already know, I'm going to say a few words or phrases and you just say the first word that comes to your mind, or if it's a feeling that you have about that, or a story that it connects to. OK, so the first one is…CODA.

00:15:20 Nives

Hmm, I would, I would maybe use the BSL sign CODA-HEART. [laughs] [Tim: mhmm] That's the first thing that came to my mind or CO- CODA International, the organization [Tim: yeah] where, where I attended a great conference. [Tim: hmm]

00:15:36 Nives

And even more in Croatia we have, uh, in, in a, in a few days we will have a first CODA conference.

00:15:42 Nives

So yeah, all about CODA organizations.

00:15:47 Tim

Where was this CODA international conference?

00:15:50 Nives

I attended CODA International in Reading, in England in 2015. It was really great event.

00:15:56 Tim

You say international from so from all over the world.

00:15:59 Nives

Yes, yes, mostly America. But there were people from really all over the world.

00:16:05 Tim

Yeah. What was the theme or the topic?

00:16:08 Nives

CODA Land.

00:16:09 Tim

Which means…?

00:16:11 Nives

Well, which means wherever there are CODA, there is CODA Land and actually it was my first and until now the only conference, CODA conference that I attended. And it's a shame because a lot of CODA conferences are in States and it's quite expensive to attend. [Tim: mhmm] Even this one was really, really expensive for me, but still.

00:16:31 Nives

And all the topics that they were discussing, it was like, “Oh my God, that happened to me and that too.”

00:16:37 Nives

“And that too.” [both laugh]

00:16:38 Nives

It was actually the I would say first year and the only conference so far that I, like it was, like, so many “me, me, me, me” happening or “me too”. [both laughing]

00:16:50 Nives

Yeah, it was fun. [Tim: wow]

00:16:53 Tim

OK, next word.

00:16:55 Tim

Comfort food.

00:16:57 Nives

Oh my God, all the foods. Because I'm a foodie. I love to eat, I love to cook, and yeah, everything's a comfort food for me.

00:17:06 Tim

Are you a coffee drinker or a tea drinker?

00:17:09 Nives

I don't drink coffee. I drink Nescafe with milk. [Tim: mhmm] And I actually a fun fact about me. I've never tasted, like a sip of coffee. Black coffee and beer in my entire life. [Tim: wow]

00:17:20 Nives

Yeah, I know. I don't like the, the smell.

00:17:24 Tim

The smell… yeah.

00:17:25 Nives

And I always make fun of whenever people ask me why I don't do that.

00:17:30 Nives

Yeah, because and. And I usually say that because I lived near a coffee and a beer factory, like actually in between, when I was growing up. I mean, it's not a because of that, but yeah, actually I, I don't. I don't like the smell of coffee and I don't like the smell of beer. And that's the only reason that I've never tasted it. So, I would say tea. [Tim: tea, yeah]

00:17:50 Nives

Yeah, definitely. [chuckles]

00:17:52 Tim

I grew up allergic to strawberries and I, I still cannot stand the smell of strawberries.

00:17:56 Nives

Wow, OK, don't, don't go to Tunisia because they have the best strawberry juice, like, ever, ever, and I've tried to recreate…

00:18:06 Nives

…recreate it when I got back. [Tim: uh huh] I kind of was successful but they have like really the best one. So don't go there.

00:18:14 Tim

Wow I, I will not ever. OK, so next… technology.

00:18:22 Nives

I kind of assumed that you would ask me this. [laughs]

00:18:25 Tim

Really?!, wow.

00:18:27 Nives

Yeah. First thing that comes to my mind is like a must because I live with a programmer.

00:18:33 Nives

And that's a must. [Tim laughs] If you were here with me in this room, you would see a bunch of things. And it's even like a childish things like VR and the joysticks and stuff, you know?

00:18:50 Nives

Big kid, small kid things…and a lot of electronics. So yeah, the technology is a must in our house and I really like it.

00:18:59 Tim

Yeah, I'll have to meet him someday. [Nives laughing: Please do.]

00:19:04 Tim

[chuckles] OK, next…

00:19:07 Tim

Pet peeve.

00:19:08 Nives

Wow. [both laugh] So, should I say what we discussed prior to the interview? Like people saying they're interpreters when they're not. [both laughing] OK, but… that was a “fun thing”, but…

00:19:24 Nives

It's not that it's like, so bugs me. [Tim: mhmm]

00:19:28 Nives

But still it kind of gets on my nerves when people claim to be. I mean, as if they're simplifying our job, you know? [Tim: mhmm] That, that's the thing. If I would say that I'm interpreter for like German. I mean, I kind of speak German and but I would never interpret German [Tim: mhmm] because yeah, I don't know it at that level. [Tim: yeah]

00:19:48 Nives

And yeah. [Tim: yeah]

00:19:52 Tim

OK, next… community.

00:19:57 Nives

Deaf community, definitely, [both chuckle] always and forever. Yeah. Because I know, maybe, maybe that's because I'm connecting the word community, the English word [Tim: mhmm] with all the books that I've read and most of them are like, you know, it's the syntax is deaf community. So for in my mind, that's like...

00:20:17 Nives

It has to be together. [both amused]

00:20:20 Tim

It doesn't connect in Croatian then? …for you that way.

00:20:23 Nives

I would if I say community, I would maybe think about my family, about my friends [Tim: mhmm] and…

00:20:31 Nives

Deaf people again. I mean, yeah, yeah.

00:20:32 Tim

Yeah. And they are there.

00:20:36 Nives

Everyone's there. [Tim laughs] I mean, they're all Croatian, but that's like not that big of a deal, [Tim: yeah] even though it's nice, of course.

00:20:43 Tim

Of course.

00:20:44 Nives

Have to be a little bit nationalists. [both chuckle] Croatia is a nice country come and visit.

00:20:49 Tim

Ohh it is. It's beautiful, yes.

00:20:52 Tim

OK, next…interpreting.

00:20:59 Nives

Hmmm, passion, life-calling…

00:21:02 Nives

And a lot of work. [both chuckle]

00:21:06 Nives

But passion, definitely. [Tim: yeah] That's what the reason why I chose... I'm not sure how that translates to English, but in Croatia, Croatia is something like “classical gymnasium”. So, I was learning Greek and Latin in high school. [Tim: mhmm] And I was always interested in languages and the reason why I was enrolled in classical gymnasium is because we didn't have classical elementary school and I really wanted to learn Greek and Latin when I was a kid. So yeah.

00:21:34 Tim

And did you?

00:21:35 Nives

Yeah, but that's an ancient Greek and Latin that's not used. So I mean, I can translate Odysseus and I don't know, Homer, and Aristotle, if you like, but that would be it. [both chuckle]

00:21:50 Tim

So, your next step is to translate those into Croatian sign language. That would be great. [Nives: Yeah] Get right on that.

00:21:56 Nives

Maybe not happening, [both chuckle] but good idea. When I finish a bunch of other work that I'm, other jobs that I'm working on, projects and stuff. Yeah. Thank you for additional idea. [laughs]

00:22:08 Tim

No problem, no problem at all. OK and last…heartbreaking.

00:22:16 Nives

Wow, I should say wars.

00:22:20 Nives

Yeah, because with Ukraine, Russia, Gaza, Syria and all other countries.

00:22:27 Nives

I think that's heartbreaking to see any people being killed, any children being left without parents, people starving, not living in a, in a secure country. [Tim: mhmm]

00:22:40 Nives

So, that, that, that's heartbreaking for me.

00:22:44 Nives

And living in a world that actually lets that happen [Tim: mhmm] all over again, like we didn't learn from previous wars, anything. [Tim: mhmm]

00:22:53 Nives

But then when you think that there is money involved, everything clears out, yeah.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:23:05 Tim

Well, are you going to pretend that you like this episode, or are you just going to like it? Many things in this episode? Let's try to narrow it down a little bit. The running theme is how much things influence us when we talk about ethics. Looking at the Demand Control schema.

00:23:25 Tim

Or looking at… or looking at Role Space. Looking at any of the interpreting processes, whether it's cognitive or social linguistic.

00:23:36 Tim

Each of those speak to influences of how we do our job, how we make a decision about what language to use, what vocabulary to use, what inflection to use, what to emphasize. But along with that, we have to understand our experience. That's a big part of it, and there are nuances to our experiences that we don't think about as often as we do the obvious influences take, for example, the different countries and or cultures that were mentioned in the episode. Some cultures are more direct.

00:24:11 Tim

Some are more indirect, some just completely hide the meaning to be socially polite. And yet the meanings are the same.

00:24:22 Tim

Humor is one of those things that's hard to translate, hard to interpret between different cultures. We know that that's an obvious one, but some of these things such as the word community.

00:24:34 Tim

When I asked what does community bring to mind? Well, for Nives, she had to explain that in English, she thinks of the terms “deaf community” and as an interpreter, we immediately kind of go to that deaf community hearing community. Those are things that we obviously go to in English.

00:24:57 Tim

Because of the literature, because of how we talk about our profession. But in her language, she goes to family, friends and as interpreters, we need to remember those things.

00:25:08 Tim

How our experience is influenced by who we are, where we're from and the languages that we use, the fact that the interpreting community and the deaf community need to work together and understand that they have conflicts or that they have different interests, different perspectives and can learn from each other to improve the profession for everyone.

00:25:32 Tim

Nives being a CODA also shows how her experience is different from non-CODAs, and yet it's similar to one interpreter and another interpreter. They have the same feelings like, “Oh yeah, me too. Oh yeah, that happens to me. Oh, exactly.” We have those feelings when we are together and talk about our profession.

00:25:53 Tim

It's a common thing for two different people, but part of the same… heh…

00:25:59 Tim

Community. No, of course, non-CODAs do not have the same experience as CODAs and vice versa.

00:26:07 Tim

We all have common connections. Community connections are important. We learn from each other. We see what we're trying to be. We're all trying to strive for this level of professionalism, skill level, expertise, knowledge.

00:26:28 Tim

So, let's not pretend to be there, but let's start being there. Let's strive for that daily.

00:26:36 Tim

But part of our experience is to remember to meet those other communities, try the food, try the language, in fact, keep calm.

00:26:47 Tim

Keep interpreting in your community. Don't pretend I won't see you next week. Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:27:32]