IW 88: Interview Nives Gotovac Part 2: Shut Up and Learn

How Dare You! Oh, that's what you mean... OK.

Continuing our conversation with Nives Gotovac from Croatia, we learn more about her journey to becoming a sign language interpreter, the joy, the embarrassment, the fun, and the development process. Sprinkled in the mix we learn more details of the Croatian Sign Language interpreter profession's working conditions and growing pains.

As always, we have a little fun. Enjoy this second part of our chat.

Transcript

IW 88-Interview Nives Gotovac Part 2- Shut Up and Learn

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS] 

00:00:02 Tim

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go tointerpretersworkshop.com

00:00:28 Tim

Let's start talking... interpreting.

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:34 Tim

And now the quote of the day by Alan Maiccon, Brazilian author.

00:00:41 Tim

“Learning is a feeling between humility and simplicity.”

00:00:46 Tim

Today we'll learn how this quote connects to our profession through the words of Nives Gotovac, our guest, as we continue the interview from last week.

00:00:58 Tim

So, why the title Shut Up and Learn? You'll learn that soon in the episode. However, it's not an insult. It refers to the fact that sometimes we need to close our ego, our arrogance, and even our own confidence and just listen.

00:01:19 Tim

Learn from others, such as our guest today. Nives will tell us more of her journey as a sign language interpreter from knowing it all to realizing that all is a bit bigger than she thought.

00:01:32 Tim

And we'll also hear more about the development and growth of the sign language interpreting profession in Croatia.

00:01:41 Tim

Let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:01:48 Tim

Yeah, volunteer interpreting. How did all that change from volunteer interpreting? Not very many interpreters to interpreters being paid. How are you paid in in Croatia? Is it just through the organizations that you work for?

00:02:04 Nives

Yes, in 2007 actually it was the I think it was the first project that paid salaries to interpreters, but to interpreters who are working in schools. [Tim: mhmm] And I think 2007, 2008, there were some interpreters that were employed in Deaf associations or Deafblind associations. And that's how it started.

00:02:25 Nives

Prior to that you could work for like a monthly fee or hourly fee and you would work a few hours a month or few hours in in a year. [Tim: mhmm]

00:02:35 Nives

But after those government projects started, so it was, uh, you were basically employed as, I mean, as you are now. But the thing with this new law is that we will have a permanent contract, [Tim: mhmm] not a year contract that we had until now. So, that, that's a good thing.

00:02:56 Nives

Because a lot of interpreters were insecure. I mean, you kind of assume that you will get a new contract on 1st of January, but then there is like a tiny bit of insecurity inside of you [Tim: mhmm] that says, “well, 31st of December is like today [Tim chuckling] and like nobody told me anything about the contract.”

00:03:15 Nives

I mean you do uh, but still, you know, and that that's the thing because you're underpaid, you can't get any loans for house, a car or whatever you want or need... [Tim: mhmm]

00:03:27 Nives

But that, that's, that's a good thing with this new law. But yes, interpreters are paid. So basically, the, the system is that the government pays Deaf associations or associations that, that employ interpreters, and interpreters are paid from, from the associations.

00:03:47 Tim

Yeah, I see.

00:03:47 Nives

But it's actually government that's funding it.

00:03:51 Tim

Yeah. And as you said that they don't really allocate a lot of money for that.

00:03:56 Nives

No, unfortunately not. I mean, we're still treated as personal assistants. [Tim: yeah] So now it's, it… It's with this new law or personal assistance get…

00:04:06 Nives

11 ½ euros per hour, and us interpreters we get 12 ½, and interpreters for Deafblind 13 ½. And that's, that's with taxes. So, you should deduct taxes and all the expenses that association has for paying the coordinator, paying the utilities or paying whatever they have to accounting [Tim: mhmm] and then you get your salary. So, it's still, I mean it's going to be a little bit better, but still it, it doesn't qualify as an interpreter salary.

00:04:37 Tim

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's it's similar in, in other countries as well.

00:04:40 Nives

Yeah, not naming one. [a little humor]

00:04:41 Tim

But uh, no not naming one at all... [Nives chuckles]

00:04:45 Tim

Where I am. [coughs] Excuse me. [silly humor]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:04:52 Tim

So, you're the President of the Croatian Sign Language Association. [Nives: mhmm]

00:04:56 Tim

And when was that first established?

00:04:59 Nives

So, Croation Association of Sign Language Interpreters was established in 2016.

00:05:05 Nives

But prior to that, we already had actually two associations of sign language interpreters, [chuckles slightly] [Tim: hmm, OK.] but our association was officially established in 2016, prior… because we wanted really, really badly to win the bid for efsli Conference in 2018.

00:05:25 Nives

And we did it, yes. [both laugh] So, we organized at the conference in 2018, but officially, the, the Association was established in 2016, even though there were two associations established. So, one was established in 2007, [Tim: mhmm] and now it, it changed its name from Croatian Sign Language Interpreters and Translators…

00:05:46 Nives

…toooo… I'm having troubles with, with the name [slowly speaks] Croatian Association of Communication Intermediaries, because in Croatia we are still not all labeled as Croatian Sign Language Interpreters. [Tim: mhmm] But most legislation, uh, tells us that our name is Communication Intermediary [Tim: mhmm] or Intermediaries. Not fully in agreement with that. [Tim: sure] I mean we do, I mean we do facilitate communication we do, uh…

00:06:16 Nives

…mediate communication, but I wouldn't say that our job is communication intermediary, because what does intermediary mean [Tim: mhmm] and what is his or her role, and boundaries, and a lot of things are not that clear as it should be, or as it is when you say that you are an interpreter or sign language interpreter. [Tim: mhmm] Yeah. So yeah. And there, there was another interpreter association that was established, actually as a, as an association that was connected more with the Deafblind.

00:06:47 Nives

But it was actually interpreters’ association, so Croation Sign Language Interpreters Association. Like the, the association that was, like, prior to ours. [both chuckle] Same name. But yeah, actually I was a part of that association as well.

00:07:00 Nives

But we were focused actually to Deafblind, Deaf, uh, interpreting to Deaf and hard of hearing. And at that time, we were kind of advanced because we included deaf interpreters in our association [Tim: mhmm] and said that it's like an, a normal and a good thing to have deaf interpreters.

00:07:18 Tim

Yeah. Wow. So the other two associations, are they still there [Nives: Yes] or have they been absorbed into this one?

00:07:26 Nives

No, no, no. They still exist. [Tim: OK] So this association that was, that was under Deafblind associations, they changed their name to Signal, like a network of people that are interested in deaf culture and sign language. So they are more into that. Intermediaries are still, still here since 2007, [Tim: mhmm] and Croation Association of Sign Language Interpreters.

00:07:53 Tim

OK. Yeah.

00:07:54 Nives

That's us. It's kind of confusing, I know, because we in Croatia, we really love to have everything confused and that's the way how we work the best I would say. [both laughing slightly] No joke, but there is a hint of truth in there.

00:08:10 Tim

Yeah. There's always politics involved or cliques, traditions, [Nives: yeah] things that you want to stick to, yeah.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:08:21 Tim

From your childhood till now, what do you see or look back on as the moments in time that helped push the development of interpreting there?

00:08:33 Nives

No, I wouldn't say that there was a certain events, but maybe I would connect more with the financing [Tim: mhmm] and with government funds so this 2007 that I already mentioned. [Tim: mhmm]

00:08:48 Nives

That there was a funding for interpreters working in schools educational interpreters. [Tim: mhmm]

00:08:54 Nives

So, I would say that was a kind of a time when people started, or government at least started to understand that…

00:09:02 Nives

Interpreters are necessary because up until then it was more or less interpreters working at courts in legal settings. So, like police and sometimes in medical settings, but very, very rarely. [Tim: hmm] And I remember from my childhood the only encounter with interpreter I had with a sign language interpreter was at our friend's wedding, [Tim: hmm] because there weren't that many interpreters.

00:09:30 Nives

And you couldn't call interpreter to, I don't know interpret the PA meeting parent teacher meeting at school. [Tim: mhmm] Or to go with you at the I don't know, meeting at, at work, or meeting your boss, or to some lecture, or I don't know, to buy a mobile phone, or whatever you were buying, you know? [Tim: mhmm, Yeah]

00:09:52 Nives

So yeah, but I, I would connect it more, that development, [Tim: mhmm] the least that we had happened through the funding. And then since 2007, I would say that there were more interpreters employed, more people started to understand what the interpreting is, even though I'm still not sure that we fully understand [Tim: sure] what sign language interpreters should do.

00:10:16 Nives

And because we still have that legacy, as you said, there are some customs, some traditions [Tim: mhmm] that don't go away that easily, but because we still have associations that employ interpreters. But regardless is it, is it the board, or is the president, or just employee, other employees that expect from interpreter to be like one-size-fits-all, [Tim: mhmm] meaning that interpreter is interpreter, a project manager, social worker, psychologist, lawyer and you can continue. [laughs] [Tim: mhmm]

00:10:50 Nives

I mean it's expected from interpreter to do so many different things [Tim: yeah] and partially it's because not all associations have that many, uh, employees, [Tim: yeah] and sometimes it's of course expected that you will not be needing, for like in an association of like let's say, 30 deaf people, you don't need all those [Tim: mhmm] professionals.

00:11:16 Nives

And what do you do? You employ an interpreter who does everything and, and interpret. [both chuckling] Yeah. I wouldn't say that's, that's the best thing. But that's the legacy that we need to, to overcome.

00:11:28 Tim

Yeah. And that's a hard thing when you have to change the views of, of so many.

00:11:33 Nives

Yes. And I think that we can reach that by education. [Tim: mhmm]

00:11:37 Nives

By educating interpreters as well as Deaf, Deafblind, hard of hearing, everyone in the community, we, we have to, I mean interpreters can't exist without deaf community. [Tim: right, exactly] That's that. [both laughing] That's like I, I'm not sure. Should I even say that? But yeah, we, we don't exist without deaf community.

00:11:57 Nives

So, we all should work together [Tim: mhmm] uh, to have like full understanding of what's our role? What are we supposed to do? And why aren't we doing some other things that we did in the past? And why is that not, not good for, for that deaf community? [Tim: yeah]

00:12:14 Nives

I mean, for me, it's if you have one person doing all those jobs, I'm not sure if you understand the role of all those jobs that you should have many more professionals working in, in, an association. [Tim: mhmm]

00:12:29 Tim

Yeah, that question going back to what you said earlier. [Nives: mhmm]

00:12:32 Tim

How many deaf interpreters do you have in Croatia?

00:12:36 Nives

I'm not sure about the exact number [Tim: mhmm] because in my research there were eight out of 55 participants. There were eight people that identified as, uh, deaf interpreters. [Tim: mhmm] But I know I, I mean, we are small country, so I assume that there a lot of them are hard of hearing.

00:12:57 Nives

So, they're using both hearing aids and, uh, so yeah, they're not fully Deaf as we usually think about deaf interpreters, [Tim: mhmm] but nevertheless they, they are deaf interpreters because they, they cannot cover all the settings. [Tim: mhmm] And I'm not sure about the exact number in Croatia because I know the deaf, uh, deaf interpreters…

00:13:17 Nives

Are mostly employed in Deafblind associations, Croatian or other regional associations but…

00:13:24 Nives

Let me guess, there are around 20 of them. [Tim: mhmm]

00:13:28 Nives

Yeah, some of them are, are also working in deaf associations, but I would say that they're mostly hard of hearing interpreters.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:13:34 Tim

I know I have some super fans out there listening right now. Thank you so much for sharing, because the podcast listenership is growing leaps and bounds. Thank you each and every one of you who have sent me a coffee. Check out the links in the show notes. Let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:13:51 Tim

You didn't see many interpreters when you were growing up, but once you started working as an interpreter and traveling, when did you first meet interpreters outside of Croatia and how did that influence you and perhaps even the other interpreters?

00:14:07 Nives

Yeah, it was funny thing. I was thinking about when you sent me your, like guidelines for this interview, and you said like, “embarrassing moment” in interpreting. I was thinking, well, I don't have any and I just remembered…

00:14:20 Nives

…that there was like, uh, years of embarrassment, actually, because at first, I was thinking, “well, I'm a CODA. Of course, I can interpret.” [Tim laughing] And when I was offered a job interpreting for like a few days in an international meeting because it was English, because I knew English and because I knew Croatian Sign… it was like, I mean, that's it. You know? [Tim chuckling: yeah]

00:14:43 Nives

And at that time, I was like, yeah, of course I can do that, you know, and I was doing that for, like, a few days. And when I got back home it was like wow.

00:14:54 Nives

“What did I do?” I mean that was too much. [Tim: mmm] That was…

00:14:59 Nives

…terminology I didn't understand. That was way too many hours of work just for me alone and seeing other interpreters working switching in between like having a team of interpreters. [Tim: mhmm] Prior to that, I claimed that I don't need any education because “I know everything. Come on. I mean, I'm 23.” [Tim laughing]

00:15:20 Nives

“I have the world's knowledge and I don't have to learn anything”… [Tim: mhmm] and now with 43, I think that I really don't know anything. [both chuckling]

00:15:30 Tim

It's funny how that works.

00:15:31 Nives

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so we in Deafblind association there, there were colleagues who held a lecture from Sweden. [Tim: mhmm]

00:15:43 Nives

And funny, I mean, think about that now. I miss so many good opportunities because there were a lot of lectures or workshops that I didn't attend because I knew everything. You know, I didn't need that. [Tim: mhmm]

00:15:57 Nives

And when I finally got to that workshop and then when, when I was listening to a colleague that's been working for like 40 years and still learning [Tim: mhmm] and telling me things throughout her, her life and work I was like, “Well, you know, maybe I should start reading a book at least about interpreting.” [both chuckling] Yeah. So yeah, I would say it's not embarrassing moment. It's embarrassing YEARS to interpret. Yeah.

00:16:31 Tim

Hmm. Wow.

00:16:32 Nives

Hold it. I hoped it I covered this [both still laughing] this question.

00:16:38 Nives

Yeah. So that, that influenced and working in Slovakia definitely, because I met many IS interpreters or people working in IS settings. [Tim: mhmm]

00:16:47 Nives

I was also being aware that there is efsli, there is WASLI and you know spreading the network of colleagues working together and sharing experiences that…

00:17:01 Nives

Actually, helped me to understand that, “Well, OK, we, we have some issues in Croatia. Well, there is other parts of the world and Europe, the same thing. We can collaborate, work together, and find, find ways how to work better.” So, I hope that we are on the right path even though I know it's like…

00:17:21 Nives

It will miles, miles, miles from our goal, but we'll get there.

00:17:25 Tim

Yeah, kind of wrapping up your personal life [Nives: mhmm] once you did become an interpreter. What was it like for your parents? What did they think when you said, “I'm going to work as an interpreter now, full time.”? What was their impression?

00:17:41 Nives

Well, [laughs] my parents were like, “Really, interpreter? I mean, there's, there isn't anything else? [Tim laughs loudly] I mean you, you don't want any, like, regular job?” [both laughing loudly]

00:17:56 Tim

A real job?

00:17:57 Nives

Yeah, real job that. That's what, what, what my grandmother always said.

00:18:00 Nives

She was like I mean, “Well, OK, now you're interpreting. That's fine. And that's really nice, but still, I mean, you have to earn your pension. You have to live out of something.” [Tim still chuckling] It's like, “yes, grandma. I am.”

00:18:11 Nives

“Yeah, I mean, I know that you are, sweetheart, but you know it's not. I mean it doesn't pay much.”

00:18:18 Nives

Yeah, but my parents were also like, “It's… interpreting’s fine. But you know, it's hard. It's difficult. Deaf people, you know their situations. That's not an easy thing to do. I think you should stick with the Law school, University of Law. [Tim laughing] I mean, you know, there's a family that you can work with, or you can do something else. But I mean, interpreting, that's, that’s really a tough one.”

00:18:42 Nives

At first it was really like that. But funny enough, after I started like professionally interpreting [Tim: mhmm] well my mother, she, she was always…uh… [laughs]

00:18:56 Nives

…making me stick to my ethical boundaries even more because she was always interested in “where was I, what was I doing? Who was I with? [Tim chuckling] Whereas my father, he was like, “oh, yeah, you were working. I respect that. I will not interfere. I will not ask you anything.” He was really, really like, kind of strict in, in a way.

00:19:18 Nives

And when, whenever there were, I mean, I do interpret even nowadays for my parents’ friends or acquittances. And whenever they say, that they, that they are sending their hellos to my father. I was like, I'm always like, “yeah, you can tell that by yourself because otherwise I will have to tell them that I met you or I have to lie that I've met you in the city somewhere on the street.”

00:19:38 Nives

Yeah, because being a CODA, there are pros and there are cons. [Tim laughs] This is one of them. And... Yeah. If I tell that I saw that friend [Tim: yeah] in the street in the city, I mean.

00:19:50 Nives

Nobody's buying anything anymore. [both chuckle] I mean, it's really obvious.

00:19:56 Tim

Yeah, exactly. Do you have any siblings?

00:19:59 Nives

Yes, I have a brother, two years younger.

00:20:01 Tim

Hearing or Deaf? [Nives: He’s hearing.]

00:20:03 Tim

Did he take the lawyer journey or the interpreter journey?

00:20:07 Nives

No, he's in IT Business. The best one. [laughs]

00:20:09 Tim

Oh, oh, well, that's even better. [both laughing]

00:20:13 Nives

Yeah, it's. It's funny because when I finished my, uh, EUMASLI, [Tim: mhmm]

00:20:18 Nives

He was like, “oh, well, good. You have a paper. But still, I earn more than you.” [both laughing] Yeah. I mean, he, he knows sign language. And when you force him, he will sign. But other than that, no, he, he's not, he's not signing and he's not involved in deaf community. Even though he… growing up he had a lot of deaf friends... [Tim: mhmm]

00:20:40 Nives

…that he had, like, personal ties with. Uh, guys, that he was, [chuckles] I don't know, having the same interests in computers with [Tim: yeah]…

00:20:49 Nives

Or friends or family friends, actually, and their kids that were sailing together, and biking, or whatever. Yeah, but he's not that involved in deaf community as I am. [Tim: ahh, yes]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:21:07 Tim

As a CODA, and with all that you've said to us already, what is your approach, or your feeling when you have an ethical dilemma in an interpreting situation, of course. What guideline do you have that guides you through those dilemmas?

00:21:26 Nives

At first, I have to say, “Hi, Romy”, because that's my colleague from EUMASLI that always says, “Well, it depends.” [chuckles] [Tim: mhmm] And it's really.. and as you know, ethics is a really, I, I would say, whenever we discuss ethics, there's always something else to add, and something else to discuss, and something else to, to think about. [Tim: mhmm]

00:21:47 Nives

And it's really a broad topic and I, I think that I'm guided by the principle Do No Harm, but Do No Harm is sometimes really difficult because it's “do no harm”. At certain point, it means that you will do harm to at least one participant in the, in the process. [Tim: mhmm]

00:22:03 Nives

And sometimes it's really, I mean, a few weeks ago we, we just had a, a discussion us interpreters in, in Croatia that there, there was a situation that we all got into. And it was interesting that we don't have to always be that strict, in a way. Because at first I was taught that…

00:22:23 Nives

The ethics should be like really strict. We should be neutral and what does neutral mean? Neutral means that you can't have any of, any of your personal opinions. Talk to anyone. You can't interfere. You can't do anything.

00:22:37 Nives

But then in life and working in different situations, you see that if you don't interfere, everything will go down the drain, I would say. [Tim: mhmm] And sometimes it's ethical to interfere and it's really hard sometimes to know those boundaries. [Tim: mhmm] 

00:22:54 Nives

And I'm not saying that we should be acting as robots, or not being like, involved in anything because the, the very thing that we are there just sta-, I mean just standing in the room with two people changes the dynamics. [Tim: mhmm] And even more, because they depend on us and they depend on our understanding of the situation and our decisions in the end.

00:23:18 Nives

So yeah, I, I, I'm, I'm still kind of, uh, whenever we, we talk about ethics, I'm always like not in dilemmas, but in, like, the dilemmas, times, dilemmas, times, the dilemmas. You know, it's like always a hard thing to, to really get to a good decision and maybe sometimes that you, you think that you're doing the right thing [Tim: mhmm] and after a certain time you see that it wasn't the best thing that you could do. But at that point at that brief second that you had to, to decide you did that [Tim: right] and afterwards you can question it, and you, and I think that's good.

00:24:00 Nives

It's not a problem if you make mistake. I would say we all make mistakes, but we need to learn from them, and we should develop, I mean, we shouldn't stick to what we learn or what, what we thought a few years back or a week ago.

00:24:18 Nives

If we see that there is a space for improvement, I think we should, we should go with that. [Tim: mhmm]

00:24:24 Tim

So, what would you say to your 23-year-old self? Would it be different? Would… was that 23 year old still thinking those same things that you just said?

00:24:33 Nives

Oh well, she didn't think anything, and I would say, “just go grab a book and shut up and learn. [both laugh loudly] And don't ever say that you know everything”, but eventually I got there. I mean, I understood that without sharing experiences with other colleagues.

00:24:53 Nives

Because every situation is different. [Tim: mhmm]

00:24:55 Nives

Like on daily basis, we discussed should we use this sign, or this sign is better? Should we interpret this sentence like this? Or maybe you know even for some, some things that are really like every day [Tim: mhmm] and you keep using them and you still question things that you do. Because I mean at least if you want to be better in…

00:25:15 Nives

…in your work and improve, [Tim: mhmm] and I think that, I mean not that I'm striving that, I think that, that, that it's a must, but it kind of is a natural thing that if you're working in a field for, for some time, you know certain rules, you know some things that you will never do. [Tim: mhmm] Of course, you will never interfere in a conversation, you will never…

00:25:34 Nives

…uh, put your opinion, like, or pressure anyone to have the same opinion as, as you have. I mean, especially not when you're interpreting, but in some situations when you see that people don't understand each other as they supposed to, then you should at least try to, try to correct the situation, yeah. [Tim: yeah]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC STARTS]

00:26:02 Tim

I don't know about you, but I got some really good insight into our profession from this episode. Let's break it down piece by piece and it's fairly short. Part of the word profession, that label that we use to show that we are professional, that we are in occupation that needs to be respected. Part of it has to do with the fact that we are paid for our work, for our service.

00:26:32 Tim

In fact, when we request payment for our services, it encourages others to look at us as a profession. That simple act of saying here is my invoice or here is what I should be paid that creates awareness...

00:26:49 Tim

That we are professional, that we're not just doing this to help someone, but we're also doing it to create a living for ourselves. It gives value to our education, to our knowledge, to our skills, to our service.

00:27:07 Tim

So, just asking for payment helps all of us around the world who are trying to work as an interpreter. It helps us all elevate the profession, and it creates awareness in society and that payment allows us to not have more than one job allows us to eventually be quote only unquote a sign language interpreter.

00:27:36 Tim

Because, like Nives said, when we split our responsibility in a job between interpreting, administration, social work, consultant, all of those different responsibilities take away energy from the other responsibilities. If we only have one responsibility and that is to be a sign language interpreter, then our energy is more.

00:28:03 Tim

Our brain power is stronger and clearer because we know what the goal is right now, when we only do one thing, so asking for payment helps us distinguish the profession as “stand alone”. Nives mentioned that when she was younger…

00:28:23 Tim

“She knew everything” and I believe that is a story for everyone, or rather, that story is everyone's story. When we're younger, we think we know much more than those who have taught us all this time.

00:28:38 Tim

And as an interpreter, sometimes we go through cycles of: I've been doing this so long that I do know this already, and then we go back to forgetting things. I'm not as knowledgeable as I thought. Ohh, I didn't realize I was doing this habit over and over again.

00:28:58 Tim

We need to remember humility, so that we will close our mouths, close our opinions, and just learn.

00:29:08 Tim

Study what others are doing. Understand that we can learn in every moment from young, old, experienced, not experienced, because the field, the profession, even the payments are changing, and we have to change with it. Speaking of changing… ethics!

00:29:28 Tim

Ethics and morals have changed over the years, but one thing hasn't changed in the sign language interpreting profession. We still discuss ethics, ALL - THE - TIME. We talk about it at workshops, we talk about it when we're discussing skill development.

00:29:49 Tim

Ethics creeps in in every discussion with interpreting. Even when we are explaining it to others outside the profession, ethics comes up about how difficult the job is by deciding how to decide. Why do we talk about it so much?

00:30:08 Tim

As Nives says, when we are discussing ethics, we continually add more and more, and it goes broader and broader. So many things to add, so many perspectives to think about that it becomes a circle of overwhelming-ness. We are so deep in the discussion that we give ourselves a feeling of confusion or complexity. We make ourselves think it is so complex that we don't ever answer the question. We just throw up our hands and we say, “it depends”.

00:30:44 Tim

And we all laugh. Yes, but what? What does it depend on? That is what we keep forgetting about. And we never give ourselves clarity. We give ourselves more confusion and more complexity. And so, we come away from an ethics discussion feeling like I can't really ever answer that question.

00:31:06 Tim

Because the answer only comes in the situation and Nives gave us a wonderful focus do no harm.

00:31:15 Tim

Every decision is going to have a consequence and someone in the situation will be harmed a little bit more than the rest of them. We can't avoid it. We can just do the best we can. So, when you talk too much or when you know better and know everything…

00:31:35 Tim

[laughs a little] …let's listen to the older, experienced Nives, “Shut up and learn.” Keep calm, shut up and interpret. I'll see you next week.

Take care now.

[ROCK EXIT MUSIC ENDS AT 00:32:25]