IW 76: Interview Robyn K Dean Part 2: Blessings, Curses, and Challenges

Wait, it's about you, not me! I get it.

In this episode, Dr Dean shares how Demand Control Schema applied to the signed language interpreting profession ...got out of control quickly. Yet, over time, it has coalesced into a textbook and a filter with which to look at the dynamics of our work.

This has lead her to the new focus of looking at signed language interpreting as a Practice Profession, which she touches on in this episode and the upcoming ones. Stay tuned!

Transcript

IW 76: Interview Robyn K Dean Part 2: Blessings, Curses, and Challenges

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[ROCK INTRO MUSIC STARTS] 

00:00:02

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreter's Workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting the ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go tointerpretersworkshop.com

00:00:28

Let's start talking... interpreting. 

[ROCK INTRO MUSIC ENDS]

00:00:34 Tim

And now the quote of the day by Peruvian born Carlos Castaneda, American anthropologist and writer.

00:00:43 Tim

“The basic difference between an ordinary man and a warrior is that a warrior takes everything as a challenge, while an ordinary man takes everything as a blessing or curse.”

00:00:57 Tim

As an interpreter, we face many challenges that can be blessings or curses. When we have something that's positive or something that's negative in our work, this quote helps us think of it as a challenge. How can we use this, whether it's positive or negative, to improve ourselves as an interpreter, a colleague?

00:01:18 Tim

…and improve the profession?

00:01:20 Tim

Today we talk again with Robin Dean. She tells us how her application of demand control schema to our profession took off like wildfire so quickly that not everything was understood correctly, which was a blessing and a curse. She talks about how we as interpreters.

00:01:41 Tim

And expats, those of us living in other countries, have similarities, things that give us positives and negatives and challenge us every day. And she touches on interpreting as a practice profession.

00:01:57 Tim

Let's get started.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:02:03 Tim

I remember the first workshop that I went to which had this newfangled demand control schema topic.

00:02:13 Tim

And it was presented by the former director of the program, where I learned interpreting, Joni Bice, which was my last guest on the podcast.

00:02:22 Tim

And she did a great job with the workshop. It was intriguing to me and made clear sense to me, but that was, that was quite a while ago. I guess that that was before according to your timeline, it was right at the time when you were first starting to present it.

00:02:42 Robyn

mhmm

00:02:43 Tim

And what that means to me is that it took off rather quickly and spread quickly, because I'm talking about Oklahoma and the only things that usually go fast to Oklahoma are tornadoes. So… [Robyn giggles, Tim giggles too]

00:02:57 Tim

Now I'm going to get some backlash myself from Oklahomans. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I know the Texans are happy I said that, but no, OK.

00:03:08 Robyn

Which is… Which is a blessing and a curse. Right, [Tim: mhmm] like it, it…

00:03:11 Robyn

When it, it gave me the encouragement that this is something that has value and is is beneficial to people. [Tim: mhmm]

00:03:18 Robyn

Because I wouldn't have done it if that component weren't evident. I, I lose energy quickly for things that are only of interest to me. [Tim: sure]

00:03:26 Robyn

Uh, and so that was the blessing part. But then the curse was, is that people were saying, well, where are the curriculum materials and how do I teach this? [Tim: mhmm] And how do you distinguish between interpersonal and paralinguistic? [Tim: mhmm] And I didn't have the answers because I hadn't played with the constructs enough myself to have that.

00:03:44 Tim

Yeah, it was. You know, your baby being taken and other people were putting their perspectives to it and adding their opinions to it. And you're thinking, but I don't know if that's actually true. And so, it was out of your hands. It felt like, yeah, I can say that.

00:03:59 Robyn

Yeah, and, and a perfect example of that takes us back to the Liberal to Conservative Spectrum, where people would say.

00:04:05 Robyn

“So, what Robyn’s work says is there's no wrong answers.” Right? [Tim: hmm] And that's not what the, [both chuckling] the Liberal to Conservative Spectrum, as a matter of fact. There's these very clear two dotted lines, and on the opposite ends of those that's saying there are decisions that are wrong because they're too conservative and wrong... [both slowly stop laughing]

00:04:25 Robyn

…because they're too liberal. [Tim: mhmm] And so yeah, that was a sense of…

00:04:29 Robyn

Well, I mean when you're a person who's concerned about what people will do with your work as an educator, that there's really not much you can do [Tim: mhmm] unless you just keep it all to yourself. And that's not what education is about. So…

00:04:40 Robyn

You put stuff out there, and of course it helped me develop ideas and constructs that eventually I came to publish about because of the fact that I worked with faculty members at universities and working interpreters, etc. [Tim: mhmm] Over the years with questions and answers and such that actually helped to develop the work. So, [Tim: mhmm]

00:04:59 Robyn

So, the, the fact that it got out obviously as I was saying is, is good for those reasons.

00:05:04 Robyn

But you're right.

00:05:05 Robyn

Things that would come back at me of oh, yes, you know you, you say. [Tim: mhmm]

00:05:09 Robyn

OK. And I don't know where you would have gotten that from so? [Tim laughs: yeah]

00:05:14 Robyn

And even when it was published, right, [Tim: yeah] like it's written in black and white, it's still… That's one of the reasons why we do and we did publish. We published something probably every year, [Tim: mmm] often times in response to “let me make sure that this is clear”, right… [Tim: right]

00:05:29 Robyn

…to follow up to some of the ways in which it sort of spread like wildfire.

00:05:35 Tim

Yeah. Yeah. How did all of this make you turn to, or perhaps what was the decision to study in the UK?

00:05:44 Robyn

I was lucky in 2001, so the first publication that we had with the first seminal article was in 2001. It was also the same time that we were funded by the Department of Education [Tim: mmm] to begin to infuse elements of Demand-Control Schema into interpreter education.

00:06:05 Robyn

And then we were lucky to get another grant in 2005, which allowed us to continue that work. And then I had another grant that allowed me to continue my work all the way up until about 2010.

00:06:15 Robyn

And then, with the Republicans in office, there was fewer and fewer Department of Education grants, and I wasn't finding…

00:06:25 Robyn

…anything that was fitting what I wanted to do with the work. People were willing to say to me, “Oh, you can work on this grant and I'll put you on for 10%” etcetera. But of course, I was quite happy to go back to interpreting. [Tim: mhmm] I mean, I was still interpreting this whole time as well sort of in a part time basis.

00:06:42 Robyn

But, I was happy to go back to interpreting and I didn't want to do academic work for “academic works”, sake. [Tim: mhmm]

00:06:48 Robyn

I wanted to do my own stuff. [Tim: yeah] Just, you know, perhaps selfishly. So, in 2010, early 2011, I was working almost exclusively interpreting and doing some workshops that I was invited to do in the US and abroad.

00:07:05 Robyn

And an e-mail from Graham Turner came through my inbox. Of course, just because I was on a list. [Tim: mhmm] He wasn't sending it directly to me and I thought, well, here's an opportunity. It was, it was a scholarship to, you know, live and, and, and study in, at Harriot Watt.

00:07:24 Robyn

And I thought, well, here's an opportunity to get a grant to do research on something I'm interested in, which is all the things I had been doing and wanting to continue to do. [Tim: mhmm] I didn't want a PhD, [Tim chuckles] absolutely not the least bit interested in a PhD.

00:07:40 Robyn

The but that was kind of the, you know, the, the other side of that coin. If I wanted to take advantage of it [Tim: mhmm] was technically I was supposed to do a PhD at the same time. So, I applied for it and I think it kind of came as a shock to the folks, specifically Grant Turner. I don't know if you have to edit this part out. [both chuckling]

00:08:01 Robyn

I have to check with it. It came as a shock. Like why would you want to get a PhD at the age of 43, right at the time I was 43 when I was headed to, headed to Scotland.

00:08:14 Robyn

And “why do you want to do this?” [Tim: yeah, yeah] You know and, and I said, and I basically said what I just said now, which is “I want to continue to do research” and of course, the idea of living outside of the United States, as I'm sure you can identify [Tim: mhmm] was, just was just fascinating. [Tim: mhmm]

00:08:29 Robyn

And being a redhead to live in a place where you are not, [Tim laughing] you're now 11% of the population as opposed to 2% of the population. I was all about that. [Tim: yeah]

00:08:42 Robyn

So… Where it's cold and it rains and there's no sun to burn you. [Tim: yes, wow] I thought this is a match made in heaven. [Tim: yeah] So that's how I came to apply and submit a proposal which had to sort of “meet mustard” with the rigor of a typical grant application, so to speak. [Tim: mhmm]

00:09:01 Robyn

And was accepted in May, and so in September I basically packed up my entire life and, and moved to the UK and it was the best decision.

00:09:13 Tim

Yeah, you were not teaching before this?

00:09:16 Robyn

No, no, no, just as just as a supervision leader. You know, reflective practice case conferencing workshops. [Tim: mhmm] I, you know, did “train the trainer” stuff that was coming through the grant. But teaching in the sort of formal sense that where, I think I maybe taught one or two Demand Control Schema, courses at NTID as an adjunct instructor. [Tim: mhmm]

00:09:35 Robyn

And also at other, the University of Northern Colorado, of course, with the folks there. And so, I had done those ad hoc, but no, it wasn't necessarily my aim to be a university professor or instructor. [Tim: yeah] But that came with the opportunity to teach healthcare interpreting at the graduate level. [Tim: yeah] It again, talk about a match in heaven, that's what I would, would want to do. [Tim: yeah]

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:10:03 Tim

So, the move to the UK, was it all you expected or was it different somehow?

00:10:13 Robyn

You know, I don't know how you feel.

00:10:16 Robyn

I mean, I was 43, so I want to make sure that folks understand that I, I wasn't young and therefore not set in my ways, [both laugh] I was the opposite.

00:10:25 Robyn

And so, there were, it was,… It was...

00:10:27 Robyn

I couldn't have imagined it. There's no way I could have imagined it. The one, the, the main thing that was… um…

00:10:33 Robyn

…was surprising was I thought, “OK, I've got the language and I've got the culture down” for the most part. Like it's close enough Western (right?) [Tim: mhmm] culture. I should be able to adapt. I did not have any of that down. [Tim laughing] I was, the systems by which things function in the UK, even though we quote UN quote, share a language which we don't, right. [Tim: mhmm]

00:10:55 Robyn

I was so tired. [Tim: mhmm] I was, I was just so tired all the time because I had to constantly try to figure out…

00:11:02 Robyn

How this system worked. [Tim: mhmm] How that system worked. And because of the sort of politeness-expectations and indirect way of communicating, [Tim: mhmm] of not all, but some British folks, I also feel myself always having to figure out what people were saying to me. [both laughing] Like, I knew they I was being told something.

00:11:23 Robyn

Right. Usually something that I was doing wrong but I couldn't figure out what it was. [Tim chuckling: mhmm] So I, so I would say the cognitive work [Tim: mmm] that went along with just every day trying to figure out what was going on around me, [Tim: mhmm] is something I take for granted when I'm here in the US, [Tim: mhmm] that I, that I became very aware of my foreignness, [Tim: yeah] my “stranger in a strange land”-sense, [Tim: mhmm] was very palpable and, and some people, I think, certainly that was exciting on some level. [Tim: sure]

00:11:59 Robyn

Again, it goes back to it's just fatiguing. I just kind of felt tired all the time. And I remember I would instead of calling people up on the phone for information about, you know, hooking up my utilities or booking into an appointment for this, that or the other thing I would get on the bus, and I would go down to the place. [both softly laughing]

00:12:19 Robyn

…so I could see people face to face, to have the conversation. And part, it was the accent, certainly, but also because people would just say things that I, I just didn't understand. [Tim: mhmm] One of the famous lines… I was looking for a, a flat to live.

00:12:34 Robyn

It took me a very long time to find something that was suitable. I was told, oh, you know, £650 a month would be enough to, to get a flat. You know, that would be a decent flat. But again I'm 43 and I'm not used to living in a hovel.

00:12:47 Robyn

Right. [Tim chuckling] I'm not used to, not used to living in a small single room. So, I was like, “OK, no, it's not £650.” I've got to keep going up and up to find a place that was livable.

00:12:57 Robyn

Anyway, I found this place. It was fabulous and I was talking to the, the person who was showing me the elements of the flat and he said.

00:13:05 Robyn

He said to me, “Well, you have to know that this is a conservation area, so there's no bins and there's no double glazing.” [Tim chuckling] Now, there's nothing about that sentence that I understood. Nothing at all about that sentence that I understood. “This is a conservation area and because of that, there are no bins, and no double glazing.”

00:13:22 Robyn

And I just stood and looked at him and I said, “Oh, OK.”

00:13:26 Robyn

And that was another surprising thing about me because I'm a person who, if I don't understand something, I'm going to ask for clarification… [Tim: yeah]

00:13:32 Robyn

…IN the US, in the US. [Tim: mhmm] [both chuckling still] But when I, I just got so tired of being bewildered all the time that I just went. OK, I get it now. I know what it means right? [Tim: right]

00:13:44 Robyn

Their term for conservation would, we would say preservation. We wanna preserve this building. It's an old building and so we're preserving it. Therefore, we can't make changes to the windows. So, they're not double-paned as we would say [Tim: mhmm] in the US. They're double glazed and then the bins of course refer to the garbage cans that you would wheel out in the United States to the front of the area.

00:14:05 Robyn

So, I eventually came to figure out, [Tim still chuckling throughout] but that statement has been sort of the defining factor of, sort of, sort of a, a metonym if you will, or a metonym phrase for what my experience was like in the UK, but I met the most wonderful people there. My fellow PhD students who were also immigrants and, and, and foreigners who are also getting their PhD's. We were able to commiserate even though they were coming from very different countries than the US. [Tim: mhmm]

00:14:33 Robyn

We were able to commiserate on what it was like to be a stranger in the strange land.

00:14:37 Tim

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

00:14:38 Robyn

I assume you can identify.

00:14:39 Tim

Ohh yes, every day here, every day and I don't have the same language so yeah. [Robyn: Yes, that’s right.]

00:14:45 Tim

But you're right. It's cognitively just fatiguing.

00:14:50 Tim

In the early days, you find yourself looking for that comfort. [Robyn: mhmm]

00:14:55 Tim

Whether it's watching some TV show from America that you probably wouldn't watch if you were in America. Eating, ohh, my goodness, going to a fast food joint, [Robyn giggling] just having a hamburger. You know something… [Robyn: predictable] Yeah. Predictable. [Robyn: Yeah] Yeah.

00:15:10 Robyn

Yeah. And I was kinder. I was nicer in the UK. Here I am not a kind and nice person. [Tim chuckles]

00:15:16 Robyn

But you're just constant for good reason. I think that was a good judgment on my part is that I just constantly held back, [Tim: mhmm] you know, and contained myself and contained my personality to some degree, depending on, of course, who I was with.

00:15:31 Robyn

Almost like a cultural humility I tried to adopt. [Tim: mhmm] When I'm here, like you're saying you know you sort of…

00:15:38 Robyn

…perhaps like being in sweatpants, you sort of [both chuckle] forget or you don't notice that you're, perhaps, you know, gaining weight. [laughter]

00:15:44 Robyn

Because you're like, oh, it's all comfortable here and you're not on your own. You're not crossing your T's and dotting your eyes when you're in the United States, but when you're elsewhere, you're mindful. And you should be mindful. [Tim: exactly] But I, but I know that some people, you know, like yourself, who ended up staying, you know…

00:16:00 Robyn

Sort of expats who, who leave the US and stay. I didn't think that that was possible for me. I mean, in part because I have, you know, people here in the US who I need to be and want to be close to. [Tim: sure]

00:16:11 Robyn

But also because it was, I never got over the, the sense of being a foreigner [Tim: yeah] and that sense of mindfulness as well.

00:16:19 Tim

And you are also going through a PhD program which is not well.

00:16:22 Tim

Yeah, too easy. [Robyn: fun] [Tim bursts out laughing]

00:16:25 Tim

Not too fun. [both laughing]

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC STARTS]

00:16:30 Tim

We all need that support when we feel like a foreigner. Hey, why not click on the links in the show notes and support this foreigner? I appreciate it. Let's go back.

[ROCK TRANSITION MUSIC ENDS]

00:16:45 Tim

So that feeling of a stranger in a strange land, even though you had the same language, it was, if I may say it this way, you were in schemas that were known to you, but yet not known to you. They were familiar, but…

00:16:59 Robyn

Deceptively familiar.

00:17:00 Tim

Yeah, sometimes that can apply to interpreting. [Robyn: Yes] Sometimes we are in a setting which is familiar and we think we know how it will go, but then we realize, “Ohh, I'm deceiving myself.” How do we handle that? Do we act the same way that you and I did at the beginning kind of holding back and being too polite and not actually making a decision or reacting?

00:17:26 Robyn

Yes, I, I think that there's a couple things that come to mind when you bring up that topic.

00:17:30 Robyn

First of all…

00:17:31 Robyn

I think that there's, that interpreters sometimes are more certain and not enough curious. [Tim: mhmm]

00:17:40 Robyn

I think that because we go into so many unique settings, we have to assess and make determinations about people and dynamics and contexts so quickly [Tim: mhmm] that we become a little bit lazy and making more global, “certain” decisions about things, about people, about contacts, and then we’re surprised when they don't fit.

00:18:06 Robyn

You know we, we start interacting with those individuals and then all of a sudden we get a response we didn't expect, right. [Tim: mhmm] And then we're put on the back foot by that.

00:18:15 Robyn

So, I think, I think we do have to, certainly be good.

00:18:17 Robyn

It's almost the, the delicate dance or a marriage between being good at assessing and understanding and making assumptions about what's going on or informed decisions about what's going on. [Tim: mhmm] But at the same time being…

00:18:34 Robyn

…ready for or curious to things that might indicate there's something different than what we thought.

00:18:42 Robyn

So I think that…

00:18:43 Robyn

That's very similar is that I was put on the back foot pretty quickly, but when I started realizing things are not [both chuckle] as I expect them to be [Tim: mhmm] or thought they would be or harder than they then than I imagined they would be [Tim: mhmm] in certain instances.

00:18:58 Robyn

And instead of being curious, I sort of just was…

00:19:04 Robyn

Afraid is too strong of a word, but timid [Tim: mhmm] and tentative and “OK, I guess I won't go to that event because I'm not exactly sure if the bus 26 connects to bus 42”, you know? And so I would just sort of hold back.

00:19:19 Robyn

And so, I think that that's the danger is that, is that if you are put on the back foot by a, by a context, then the decisions that follow become more conservative not because it's the right decision or a fitting decision, [Tim: mhmm] but because we are in that, we're not, we're not bouncing back, right? We… [Tim: mhmm]

00:19:40 Robyn

Brené Brown talks about this idea of resilience or, you know, shame resilience. Like, if we have a misstep or something we recognize as going on that we didn't expect to happen that instead of addressing it in a in a more direct…

00:19:58 Robyn

…and resilient way we, we kind of just, you know, step back and, [Tim: mhmm] and don't. And then, and then opt to do nothing not because do nothing is the right decision but because we're still dealing with our own, what we would call intrapersonal demands around, making a misstep to begin with. So yeah, I, I, I think…

00:20:18 Robyn

I think that there were times again before drawing a parallel between the move to the UK and what happens in interpreting assignments. I think that we have to recognize when we're choosing to not do something, and why am I choosing to not take this particular action or I'm not moving forward. [Tim: mhmm]

00:20:34 Robyn

Is it because I really think that that's the best decision based on this new information I have?

00:20:39 Robyn

Or is it because I'm making it out of fear of retribution, or making another misstep, or even just sort of out of spite by giving up? “OK, fine, then I just won't, you know, I just won't do this”, you know? So I, I, I think that. Yeah, there's certainly some learning from that.

00:20:57 Tim

Yeah, back to your point of saying interpreters are…

00:21:01 Robyn

Certain, but not curious.

00:21:03 Tim

Yeah, interpreters sometimes are more certain and not curious. Does that connect back to your early years as an interpreter, where you kind of got used to the same people, the same settings and it and you started feeling that burnout or less excitement. [Robyn: Boredom] Boredom. Yeah.

00:21:21 Robyn

Yeah. Yeah, right. And, and I think that, that that probably came as out of the sense of certain-tude, right? Umm. Is that, umm, I didn't have a good lens with which to go very deep... [Tim: mhmm]

00:21:34 Robyn

…with what was happening at a dynamic level or a communication level, right. And that's why studying theory is so fascinating like, if you study discourse analysis.

00:21:44 Robyn

Right? Umm, then you might be able to then listen to the discourse and, and see and point out certain things which will give you that energy and that curiosity. So I think, and I think being curious as opposed to feeling, you know, certain, being curious usually doesn't come just because you, you know, snap your fingers [Tim chuckling] and hope that you become curious, right?

00:22:04 Robyn

You become curious because you have, umm…

00:22:07 Robyn

…some device with which to investigate. [Tim: mhmm] And so, and I, and again for those few years that I was trying different types of settings and eventually becoming again bored is too strong of a word but certainly overly familiar with these contacts because I didn't have a device or I didn't search [Tim: mhmm] for a device…

00:22:27 Robyn

To look at these settings in a whole different way or look at individuals in a whole different way, then I quickly went from excitement to OK, what's, what's next? What's the next thing I want to do? Is it legal interpreting? ‘cause I've tried medical, I've tried health.

00:22:40 Robyn

I've tried educational and so instead of just going to the newness of the different setting, I needed newness to come from depth. [Tim: mhmm] And the depth of looking at basically the human condition and human communication, which is endlessly fascinating. I mean, if you think about it.

00:22:55 Robyn

What are our, what are the television dramas that we spend hours [Tim chuckling] binge watching, you know?

00:23:00 Robyn

On television, you know, cop shows, medical hospital shows, lawyer shows. All of these are about basically the human condition. [Tim: mhmm] And as interpreters, we have a front row seat…

00:23:12 Robyn

…to those very human dramas that are playing out [Tim: yeah] every day in our work, and yet we are bored or some of us become sort of bored or we become overly familiar or we go, “yeah, yeah, I get it.”

00:23:25 Robyn

But then we rush home to watch the television. [Tim laughs]

00:23:29 Robyn

It's the same thing. It's just if you've got the device with which to see that and be curious about what's happening. The, the professional distance like you have between you and the television, if you can find that distancing effect the witness, as you might say in the in the field or the within Buddhism or the Observer mind as you might see in again sort of meditative type teachings. If you can get the witness…

00:23:56 Robyn

…and the observer mind to see the work in front of you, then the human drama and the human condition will continue to be endlessly fascinating. [Tim: yeah]

00:24:05 Robyn

And that's one of the things that I try to teach interpreters within, you know, reflective practice [Tim: mhmm] is how can you use devices such as theoretical frameworks and constructs to build in that distance? Not so you become cold and disconnected, [Tim: mhmm] but that you begin to… umm…

00:24:25 Robyn

Get a separation that allows, instead of your emotions to get sort of caught, to get, you know, too overly involved in the situation that you can kind of see it through the eyes of an observer. Umm, and not only does that allow you to have a better, more fruitful practice and, and be more effective as a practitioner, [Tim: mhmm] but it's just emotionally more sustainable and restorative.

00:24:50 Robyn

Umm, which is often lacking in professional development. Where are the opportunities for restorative component to our professional development? We've got formative stuff. We've got tons of information, smart people saying smart stuff, stuff to us all the time, which is great. But to what degree does that information transform into content that restores us to go back out and do the work that we need to do to find that curiosity and that fascination.

[SHORT TRANSITION MUSIC]

00:25:23 Tim

We look to have more workshops that are not familiar to us. [Robyn: mhmm]

00:25:29 Tim

Perhaps that's what we need, are more workshops to give us more filters? Or maybe new lenses that we haven't seen before? New terminology, new ways to talk about it even.

00:25:40 Robyn

One of the, the changes I, I have… I'm trying to make in, in my own work as…umm…

00:25:49 Robyn

A thought leader for lack of a better term, is the distinction between professional development and practitioner development, and what I say is, is that…

00:25:59 Robyn

Practitioner development is what sits at the intersection of professional development and personal development. [Tim: mhmm] Much as I mentioned, Brené Brown and shame resilience. Much of what makes us better at our work, given that interpreting as a practice profession.

00:26:18 Robyn

And I'll define that, if, for those who may not be familiar with that term, umm, because interpreting as a practice profession and it involves the human condition, and the human drama…

00:26:32 Robyn

That we're all sort of stuck in, [Tim: mhmm] we need to work on ourselves and develop in a personal way that we then apply to our practice. So let me…

00:26:46 Robyn

Give an example and then I'll, I'll, I'll define what I mean by practice profession.

00:26:50 Robyn

So, this is, going back to being overly familiar, right? Or, or, or feeling competent within a, within a context. I was interpreting for someone who was getting a cortisone shot, umm, in their knee in a joint to help with, you know, arthritis or injury, et cetera. And I don't care for needles myself. And so I was quite happy when the appointment was over. [both chuckle]

00:27:20 Robyn

Because seeing people in pain and also imagining my own pain experience with being, you know, with large needles is quite unpleasant. But as we were walking out from the exam room to check out at the reception desk…

00:27:35 Robyn

The deaf woman looked at me and said, and she just, she said it to me, not so much to the receptionist. She sort of said it to me, she said, “I feel dizzy” and I immediately reacted by saying, “oh, yeah, that's… I get that way too. I get anxious. It's, it's probably anxiety and stress”, like I started to use… [Tim: mmm] I saw her experience…

00:28:02 Robyn

…as my experience, not as an experience separate from me, which is again a very human thing to do. [Tim: mhmm] There's a very famous saying, and I've used this in the textbook. We do… We do not see things as they are. We see things as we are. Right? And so when she said, “I feel dizzy.” My experience was, “yeah, I know. Thank God that's over. [Tim: uh huh] I can't wait to, you know, have a seat and drink some water and you know, get over the stress and the emotion of it all.” Umm…

00:28:28 Robyn

And so I caught myself as I was sort of assuring her [Tim laughs and Robyn too] “everything is fine” and thought, “Oh my goodness, that's, that's me”, right. [Tim: yeah] So, I umm, quickly shifted from that reaction to assure her to say to the, to the receptionist, “Is there a nurse around? She's, she said she's feeling dizzy.” [Tim: mhmm, mhmm]

00:28:47 Robyn

Right. And then and then immediately the reception receptionist responded by saying, “there's a seat over there”.

00:28:52 Robyn

A nurse overheard us and came over and everything worked out just fine. But that's a simple example of if we don't engage in that know thyself, directive of being a human being...

00:29:08 Robyn

…then when you go into your work, you're going to carry too much of your own baggage and issues, and the ways in which you see the world now. There's no way to be objective, but an author by the name of Smith called it disciplined subjectivity.

00:29:24 Robyn

And we're all very subjective in how we see things and understand things we can't get out of our own brains. But we can be disciplined in our subjectivity. [Tim: mhmm] And for whatever reason, I was lucky enough in that moment to stop myself and say, [Tim chuckles] “You're actually… It’s not about you and your anxieties about getting a big needle in your joint.”

00:29:43 Robyn

Right. So that goes back to this idea of if we can engage in practitioner development where it's that intersection between those things that help us understand the people ourselves, the human condition, and how they apply to the everyday human drama that, as I said, we get a front seat to.

00:30:03 Robyn

And that's an expectation of all practice profession. So, in our work very early on probably in that 2003 publication that I mentioned we, we define this idea that interpreting as a practice professional practice based profession. And a practice profession is distinguished from technical professions. We tend to think of ourselves as technical professionals, because what do we do? We work between two languages, two cultures… [Tim: mhmm]

00:30:31 Robyn

And all we do is sort of…

00:30:32 Robyn

You know, engage in the task of message transfer. So that's worked very technical-minded, but because we work in context because we work with varying… variety of individuals and people, and the ways in which they see and understand the world…

00:30:47 Robyn

Our technical skills and abilities have to be augmented and enveloped in interpersonal skills and the ability to connect and develop rapport and trust, just like every other practice profession, such as lawyers and teachers and social workers, doctors, nurses, et cetera.

00:31:08 Robyn

So, all the practice professions have to have good technical skills, [Tim: mhmm] right? For us, it would be for me, specifically ASL and English and cultural understandings and, and knowledge and context, right, medical settings, et cetera. So all those are my technical skills, but they're only effective within a relationship between deaf people and hearing people and myself. [Tim: mhmm]

00:31:31 Robyn

Umm, and so that's the interpersonal elements that all practice professions deal with. [Tim: mhmm] And as such the need to understand and know thyself is vital to being effective. Otherwise, if the relationship is where good, effective practice happens that if you don't have, if you've got emotional needs that you don't get met and therefore use your work to get your emotional needs met, then that’s a problem for effective practice.

00:32:08 Robyn

And that would be true for any practice professional [Tim: mhmm] that they really do have to learn to separate their own personal needs from the needs that are…umm, from the needs of the individuals that they serve. And so that's kind of where I'm trying to move my work as a, umm, as a trainer, educator is on this idea of practitioner development versus professional development in a more sort of strict sense of that word. [Tim: mhmm]

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00:32:42 Tim

Let me summarize a few points from today's episode. It's not a surprise that many people misunderstood Demand Control Schema when it first came out. It was a wonderful way of looking at how we do our work, the things that influence us in the situation and what we try to do to manage all of those things while we are working on the interpreting process, we can immediately start jumping to conclusions about how this works.

00:33:12 Tim

But it's not until Robyn and Robert fleshed out all of the details of how this applies to our profession, and we then knew what it truly means.

00:33:25 Tim

That's a lesson we can all bear in mind when something new comes to our eyes and we see it for the first time. It may make clear sense to us from our perspective, but we must remember to always ask and always analyze and challenge ourselves about our understanding.

00:33:46 Tim

Because it's similar to the way we develop as an interpreter, we become familiar with all of the settings that we work in, similar people, similar language use. We think we know more than we really do.

00:34:00 Tim

And we forget about the challenges that we go through in every situation. The last point that Robyn hits on is about sign language interpreting being a practice profession. It means we are always developing. We must always reflect on what we do in every context.

00:34:22 Tim

When we become familiar, we can become complacent. We can become bored and we can become burned out. That's where ongoing development continues to challenge us. We should go to a workshop with the goal of challenging ourselves rather than asking the workshop to challenge us.

00:34:44 Tim

When we go with that mindset, we are open to seeing new things and old things in new ways.

00:34:52 Tim

As we encounter negative or positive influences or happenings in our work, take all of those as challenges. How do I apply this to my work to improve myself, to improve my interpreting process, to improve our profession?

00:35:13 Tim

Then we will start truly reflecting on our work as we are open to challenges.

00:35:20 Tim

Next week, we continue the conversation with Dr Robyn K. Dean. Until then, keep calm.

00:35:28 Tim

Keep interpreting, every challenge. I'll see you next week.

00:35:34 Tim

Take care now.

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